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Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
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Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
(AIA Conversations : April-Dec 2006)
Authors
Members of AIA Yahoo Group
Editor
Sreenadh OG
URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient indian astrology Email: [email protected]
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Preface
AIAF
AIAF is an organization to research, promote and discuss ancient indian astrology. We have a very popular yahoo group named ancientindianastrology for discussing this subject started in 3rd April 2006 and a webite with a huge digital library at www.ancientindianastrology.com. AIAF website currently contains more than 500 articles and a free digital library having more than 1200 rare books and manuscripts. Probably it is the biggest free online astrology digital library available today. Sreenadh OG is the founder of Ancient Indian Astrology Foundation. Astrology researches, book publication, preservation and translatiaon of rare manuscripts, popularizing of astrology through discussions and conferences etc are all part of AIAF project.
AIA Diget 2006
This book is an edited version of some of the conversations happened in AIA yahoo group during Apr to Dec 2006 period. We plan to produce many such books based on the conversations happened in this very active group during the past years. We hope that the serious readers of astrology books, students and teachers of astrology and the astrologers will find this book much informative. The subjects discussed in this book are very unique and the information shared is otherwise difficult to obtain. Many secrets are shared in public for the first time, and it is a group effort. The credit for such a book belongs to all who participated and contributed in AIA yahoo group discussions. Please Donate and help us grow
If you like the work done by AIAF you can help us by contributing a small amount. Donations can be done by clicking the donate bytton in AIAF website (www.ancientindianastrology.com) and making a donation through paypal. Or if you are in India please drop a mail to [email protected] to get the bank account details so that you can directly make the donation through a net transfer or direct deposit.
Regards, Sreenadh ([email protected])
Website: http://www.ancientindianastrology.com Yahoo Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_indian_astrology
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Contents
1. Astrology in epic period 07
2. Vasya Signs - Logic behind 18
3. A Secret Exposed! 32
4. Meaning of the word 'Jyotish' 41
5. Symbolism in Astrology 48
6. Symbolism Everywhere 54
7. Interesting observation 59
8. Death Desire and Death 64
9. Graha Drishti - What is the Logic behind Special Drishti? 67
lO.RasiDrishti 75
ll.PramodMahajan's Death 88
12. What on earth is east? 97
13. Interconnections or Imaginary Inventions? 105
14. Astrological Reading vs Fate and Freewill 110
15. About Prasna - Kerala style 122
16. Why- Navamsa so Important? 133
17. Predictions and the Astrologer's responsibility 142
18. Kunda Method and Birth Time rectification 148
19. Male-Female verification using Natal chart 154
20. Chart Interpretation skills 158
21. Some Ramblings 162
22. Number of issues (Count of Children) 167
23.AbhijitNakshatra 175
24. Navamsa andNavamsaka 177
25. Retro Lagna 178
26. How to predict with Navamsa? 206
27. Navamsa and Year of Danger 214
28. Taurus Lagna 217
29. Some important Questions and a Chart Analysis 237
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30. Exaltation-Debilitation and Root Triangle -some facts 253
31. Psychics and Ayanamsa 255
32. Quality of Graha Drishtis 258
33.Moolatrikona concept and History of astrology 261
34. A doubt on the nodes 275
35. Ayanamsa debate 276
36. Measures of Rasis 286
37. Kuja Dosha 287
38.Crash of Computer 291
39. Was Indus valley civilization AFTER Mabhaharata and Vedic period? 295
40. Horoscope of Rama 308
41. Inter Religion Marriage Combination 322
42. Strength of signs - Varahora 323
43. Bhava Nasakaro Jeeva -Folksy tenets, sifting through paradigms 341
44. Iconography and Historians 353
45 . Doubt Regarding Arudha 356
46. Dwi Tri Samvada Bhaval 358
47. Chhaya jyotish 372
48. Drida and Adrida karma 388
49. Want the term "666" explained? 392
50. Parasara and Jaimni 396
51. The art of expanding free-will 397
52. Pendulum prediction 412
53. Sandhya Time. Twilight. Importance. Duration 413
54. Guru-Chandala yoga 415
55. Human Evolution and Indian Mythology 419
56. Vivekananda - Astrology, Spirituality, Longevity 425
57. Astrology can become a door to spiritual attainment 433
58. How did astrology originate? 439
59. Revisiting Astrology 440
60. Debilitated planets in 3-6-11 446
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61. Single marriage and conjugal bliss 448
62. Codes of the Brahman 449
63. Astrology, Quantum Mechanics and Yagananda 452
64. Today's history becoming tomarrows mythology 464
65. A Query and Analysis 465
66. Debilitated Planets in 3-6-11-8 479
67. Resolving the Ayanamsha/Precession of equinoxes 487
68. Seeking Information on Seemantham 492
69. Points to Ponder 493
70. Bhavadheesee 494
71. Kerala Sastras 497
72. How old is Astrology? 501
73. Transit effects of Planets-should it be reckoned from Natal Moon? 545
==0==
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1. Astrology in epic period
[Sreenadh OG, DK, Pandit Arjun, Kishore Patnaik, Chandrahari]
Sreenadh:
The concept of Rasi (Sign) existed in the period of Mahabharata or not? Does anybody have a proof? If the concept of Rasi was not known at that time, should we conclude that only Nakshatra based prediction system (stellar astrology) - Probably a Nakshatra Cakram and predictions based on that - only existed in that period? In that case since combination of planets and Drishti of planets are mentioned in Epics (Mahabharata and Ramayana) should we conclude that, in epic literature, Combination means combination of planets in a Nakshatra and Drishti means Drishti of planets placed in different Nakshatras? It sounds absurd but seems logical! What is your opinion? Please clarify.
DK:
Faith can move mountains!
Sreenadh:
Of course I agree - Faith can move mountains. And I believe that systematic research can bring out many evidence and logics behind the concepts and knowledge put forward by the seers. :) I know you would agree. We are finding the first reference to signs in Yanjncha Valkya Smrithi. The Mahabharata or Ramayana does not mention the signs (The Sanskrit name - Mesha, Vrishbha etc), though it describes general astrology in detail. It seems that only the astrology based on stellar divisions were popular on those days. But the subject demands more research and verification. A study of astrology then naturally becomes a study of allied subjects such as History, Astronomy and Calendar systems, Mathematics, Literature and many more! Yes. Many have studied the subject of astrology, just out of curiosity. But only a few approached it systematically, trying to re-establish the lost facts and logics, and also trying to explore new horizons. Let us also be in that path of few.
The lines: "Two roads diverged in a wood, I took the one less traveled by And that has made all the difference" echoes in my mind.
Let us change those lines, and sing together -"WE took the one less traveled by - and that has made all the difference".
www.ancientindianastrology.com
Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006 It is probably the hardest way, but why should we think that there is another simple way at all! (Because all of them fail to clarify the clear and logical questions asked) When we walk though our hard way, for the people who follow us later, it becomes the simple path, all the hurdles removed. Yes, it is a distant dream. But we should have a big dream and aim to follow, at least to fulfill a small amount of it. Dream of conquering the mountain and practice, we could at least conquer the hills. It is belief that keeps me in this path. Yes, I too think - Faith can move mountains. Shh.... and I am tying to move one... :)) Which mountain, I will explain - The logical and structural discrepancies in astrology today, by collecting/depending on all the support I can get from those great seers. And this little simple person with out any special abilities or knowledge as I am, I wonder how can I do it. Yes, may be me alone can not - but a group can!! Because there are many others who are far better than me, (in this group itself, and also in other groups), who has already done great efforts in this direction!! (Correcting the logical and structural discrepancies in astrology today, by collecting/depending on all the support we can get from those great seers). Yes. So if not me, many others can/will do it, and they are working in this direction, (me too...). Some of them are members this group and some are not! When I say this,
1) I remember Chandra Hari who corrected and supplied evidence related to the conceptual errors crept into modern astrology related to Ayanamsa.
2) PVR ji, of Vedic Astrology forum who created a great software and supplied it free to the world.
3) Persons like Dakshinamoorthi ji, Pandit ji etc who dedicated their life and work for the cause of astrology.
Yes there are many more. And the list is endless, ever growing... I respect and bow before those many who become part of such efforts due to their pure and selfless interest and curiosity in astrology and the respect for ancient knowledge. Yes, all these people, I feel close to my heart. At the end, I feel like asking to myself, what is the purpose of any research in to ancient astrology? And the answer pops up - Yes, It is required, since it makes this system more dependable, fruitful, beneficial to many. It helps us in revealing the truthfulness of Rishi vakyas to many. The great Sages uttered it, since they want us to know, and we do the same since we want them to realize the
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greatness of those words by seers. Knowledgeable people approach everything systematical and in a structured way. They demand proof and evidence for everything. So we try to collect them, and present it to the posterity in a well structured way, since it is what they demand! Please correct me, if you find any of my thoughts going in the wrong direction.
DW:
All said and done, in the end it is all about the "jyoti". is it not? Anything that leads towards that "jyoti" is the path to be followed. Asato maa sad gamaya, Tamaso maa jyotir gamaya [Lead me from untruth to truth, from darkness to light]
Sreenadh:
I agree to that statement. Thanks.
Chandra Hari:
Astrology in epic period, I am to have some loud thinking... to facilitate a detailed
discussion - epics took their present form across many hundreds of years. They are not of
one age and of one author. And latest redactions took place as late as 100 AD or even
during Gupta times. It may look odd to some people the questioning of traditional
beliefs about epics. But if we are looking for truth, we must try to know the historical facts
that make a commentary on Gita unavailable before the time of Sankaracharya (800
AD).
If the epics and their history of avtars were true India would have been strewn all
around with temples of KrishnaKrishna?
There are ancient records about the temples at Kanyakumari, Ujjayini,Kamakhya,
Devagiri and about temples of Kerala like Thirumandhamkunnuand others. Why such
records are not available about Ram temple atAyodhya?
Kalidasa when he wrote Kumarasambhava has referred to temples of Ujjayini and
Devagiri. Has he referred to the Ram temple at Ayodhyain Raghuvamsam? Can such
omission be natural? and Rama instead ofSiva and Sakti. What is the truth that
emerges if we compare thenumbers of Siva and Sakti temples with those of Rama and
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Egypt of 2000 BC gives evidence in terms of ruins of ancient temples,palaces and
burials but why Hasthinapura and Ayodhya is not givingevidence of even hutments in
Ayodhya at say 1000 BC? On the contrarycities galore on the east in Harappa and
Mohanjadaro. Why none hasfound the ruins of Great Mithila and Lanka?
Now coming back to the epic period - there is no unanimous conclusions on the
historicity or date of the epics. Compare theAcharyaparampara of Vedanta with the
Buddhist tradition - why theBuddhist tradition is more authentic with more details? How
is itthat Vyasa and Valmiki are mythical and Buddha is historical?
What about the Weekdays? Epics have no mention of them. Withoutweekdays can there
be astrology? These are some thoughts that came to my mind.
Sreenadh:
Thank you for the guidance. This is prime reason I respect you - You always speak
based on evidence only. :)
You said - "But if we are looking for truth, we must try to know the historical facts that
make a commentary on Gita unavailable before the time of Sankaracharya (800
AD)."
Really that was a new knowledge to me! No. I don't know!! Thanks for providing that
beautiful bit of info. Yes, I don't have answers to the other questions put forward by you
as well.
You said - "These are some thoughts that came to my mind."
And now you have made us think in those lines as well. :) Yes, I agree, It is asking the right
questions is the first step in getting/seeking right answers, and doing true research.
Even though I fail to answer those questions, I will never fail to learn the lessons they
give.
We expect more mails from you that enlighten us on the various issues in astrology - and
shed some light on the dark areas, which frightens students who want to
approach/learn astrology in a systematic manner.
"Tamasoma Jyotirgamaya...."
Pandit Arjun:
All the thoughts that came into sri chandra hari's mind had come to my mind also, rather they come to all knowledge seeking minds. Since history, astrology and mythology
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Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
are all inexplicably intertwined, let me touch them in my limited knowledge.
Both the epics which are called "itihasa" mahabharat and ramayan give details of
planets, stars and their significance in various places not as an astrology lesson but their
relative strength to the characters.
As regards historic proof of ram janmabhoomi at ayodhya is concerned, kalidasa in his
raghuvansham describes ram as the incarnation of lord vishnu and also ayodhya.
If we are to find out historical support of these mentions, it would be a great exercise and
we can contribute with whatever references we could lay hands on. Sreenadh:
You said- "As regards historic proof of ram janmabhoomi at ayodhya is concerned,
kalidasa in his raghuvansham describes ram as the incarnation of lord vishnu and also
ayodhya."
Thanks, I noted the point, and note down those historically important slokas.
"Ohm Sahanavavatu, Sahanoubunaktu....
Sahaveeryamkaravavahai, Thejasweenamadheenamastu... ma
vidishavahi...Ohm..Santi..Santi..Santi..." Pandit Arjun:
1. In epics, the heros and villains are all called characters, while mentioning about the mahabharata and ramayana, my observation was that these people were described for their traits due to what star or planet, also several auspicious muhurtas as per panchang were detailed, by the way the original mahabharat of more than thirty volumes published decades ago contain more minute details at micro level which unfortunately i could see in my childhood but could not read till date as they are lost and are available only in few libraries.
2. sri hari ji was lamenting for ayodhya not finding mention in historic books and government records and observed how kalidasa omitted mention of ayodhaya in his book raghuvamsham. to this I observed that there are MANY historic books starting from vishnupurana and skandapurana besides the epics mahabhrat and ramayan and hundreds of medieval classics mentioning lord ram's ayodya including the book raghuvamsham. hari ji first mentioned that kalidasa talks about other places in kumarasambhavam but not ayodhya in raghuvamsham. if it kumarasambhavam, i do not know, but if it is
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raghuvamsham, kalidasa made no omission of ayodhya.
Sreenadh:
We are not here to promote the interest of any, but just to promote true and sincere
research. Who ever does that, and shows us the path, let them guide us. Let us share our
respect with them, who ever they are. In one instance, it could be You, in another me, and
in yet another some one else. I was asking that doubt with complete sincerity. Just to learn
from your knowledge and understanding of that subject. Yes, our mind is like a torch,
where ever we turn it to only that we can see, and the other areas may remain dark. May
knowledge and truth guide us. Let us pray to the goddess of truth and knowledge goddess
Saraswaty to guide us all. For me lord Siva (who creates and destructs everything, and is
one with time, the mahakala or kala purusha) is the father, and goddess Parvati (the nature
and universe) the mother, and everybody my relatives. I want to be as humble as I can and
leave aside the ego. From Zero we came and to Zero we go. In between let us enjoy the
subjects we love - because we all love the joy of life.
Going back to the subject of discussion, taking the 3rd party view:
Hari ji said: "Kalidasa when he wrote Kumarasambhava has referred to temples of
Ujjayini and Devagiri. Has he referred to the Ram temple at Ayodhya in
Raghuvamsam? Can such omission be natural? This means Hari ji thinks/couldn't find the
mention of Ayodhya in Raghuvamsam".
Arjun ji said: "Kalidasa in his raghuvansham describes ram as the incarnation of lord
vishnu and also ayodhya. This means Arjun ji could find the mention of Ayodhya in
Raghuvamsam."
These statements contradict!! Who is correct? I don't know. It would be clear to all, if
Arjun ji helps us by providing the sloka no, or reference.
Arjun ji said: "There are MANY historic books starting from vishnupurana and
skandapurana besides the epics mahabhrat and ramayan and hundreds of medieval
classics mentioning lord ram's ayodya including the book raghuvamsham".
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Yes, I agree completely. But I know that Hari is thinking of "historical facts" - archeological evidences, presence/ref. of temples in literarily works the period of which (the period at which that books were written) is clear etc.
I feel that what you say and what he says is correct and clear in this respect. Hari has high regard for Siva, Sakti, Kumara etc and the Sindhu-Saraswaty, Tantric and Dravidian culture. All these would add extra flavor to Each and every line he writes, which I too think is good for the revival of that vast lost knowledge. But keep these things in mind while reading what Hari writes, to get an impartial view. Yes, it is also right that usually he don't write/speak about things without supportive evidence. Sreenadh:
I felt like re-reading some of the previous messages and continuing that thread, since I
encountered a new sloka today. In the ancient text 'Jyotisha Karandak' (probably a text
in the Jain school of astrology), it is said that-
Lagnam cha dakhinavisute suvi assa uttaram ayane
Lagnam sai visuvesu panchasu vi dakhina ayane This
sloka is in Prakrit. In Sanskrit is should be-
Lagnam cha dakshina vishuveshwapi asvam uttara ayane
Lagnam swati vishuveshu panchaswapi dakshina ayane
In this sloka the Nakshatras Aswati and Swati are said to be the 'Lagna' of the
equinox!! This probably means that there was a time when Nakshatras where
considered similar to Rasi!! Consider it along with the fact that in Epics only
Nakshatra chakra and placement of planets in Nakshatra is mentioned! For sure we know
that-
• In Vedic period : Tropical calender + (fixed) Nakshatra chakra was used
So if Vedic astrology was Tropical, and if Nakshatra chakra was a gift of Vedic
astrology, then is it that Nirayana (Siderial) system based on Rasis is of Non-Vedic
origin? Is it that epics depict the extension of Nakshatra chakra system?
Chandra Hari ji says: "Whatabout the Weekdays? Epics have no mention of them.
Without weekdays can there be astrology?"
As far as I know, it might be 'Yanjchavalkya Smriti' that mentions week days first. It
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says-
SooryaH Somo MaheeputraH Somaputro BrihaspatiH
SukraH sanaischaro rahuH ketuschaite grahaH smrita
Meaning, Su, Mo, Ma, Me, Ju, Ve, Sa, Ra and Ke are the Grahas. We can see the
planets arranged in the order of Weekdays in this sloka. Is it that week days originated in
the period of Smriti only? Or is it that the Non-vedic (or Vedic?) concept of
Weekdays got a mentioned in smritis only by the period of Yajchavalkya smriti? By the
way, Do you know which is the text that first mentions the name of Rasis (Signs)? I have a
cute info. In 'Bodhayana sootra' it is said that-
"Meena Meshayor Mesha Vrishabhayor vasnta"
It might be the first mention of signs starting from Aries (Mesha) in available
literature. In Yajchavalkya smriti also the signs are mentioned. Which of them is oldest?
Who knows!! Just sharing some info. :)
Kishore Patnaik:
The concept of Lagna seems to have existed during the times of Ramayana. There seems
to be some slokas in Ayodhya kanda which mentions Rama to be born in Cancer
Lagna. But there is some controversy regarding this.
But it has to be accepted that it is more prevalent to recognize the day and time by
Stars rather than by Lagna or by sign, either in Ramayan or Mahabharat.
We should remember that both the concepts of Stars and signs refer to the same zodiac and
signs as well as stars refer to constellations of stars only-albeit different set of them.
Coming to the discussion, before Mahabharat times, there was Abhijit Star also which
seems to have gone away from earth at the beginning of the Kaliyuga.
The pole star also was earlier called Vega star (Abhijit?) and it was much higher in
Horizon and this is a scientifically proved phenomenon:
Maharshi Vyas has recorded in Mahabharat, Vana Parva (Chap.230, Verses 8-11), a
dialoge between Indra and Skanda where-in it is stated that:
Quote:
"Contesting against Abhijit (Vega), the constellation Krittika (Pliedes) went to
"Vana" the Summer Solstice to heat the summer. Then the star Abhijit slipped down
in the sky. At that time Dhanishta was given the first place in the list of Nakshatras.
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Rohini was also the first some time back. Now you decide what to do," said Indra.
Unquote
This dialogue shows that when Indra went to Summer Solstice, Vega started falling
down. Many scholars have ridiculed this idea of Star Falling; but now it is proved by
modern astronomy that it was a true fact that 12,000 years B.C., Vega had really come
down to the horizon from the heights of the sky, to become a pole star.
Krittikas were at the Summer Solstice between 21,800 and 20,840 years B.C. At this time
Dhansishta was at the vernal equinox and hence was given the first place in the
Nakshatras. From this period, the sages noticed the gradual fall of Abhijit. Falling
steadily, it is assumed the position of the Celestial Pole at 12,000 B.C., when Indra met
Skanda to think on the problem of time-reckoning. The story shows that the Indian
sages were observing the stars and constellations at least from 23,000 years B.C.
Sreenadh:
Rama was born in Punarvasu Nakshatra. But is there any authentic statement that he was
born in Karkata Lagna? Please provide the relevant sloka from Vatmeeki
Ramayana.
Kishore Patnaik states that - "We should remember that both the concepts of Stars and
signs refer to the same zodiac and signs as well as stars refer to constellations of stars
only-albeit different set of them."
I disagree. Stars (Taras) and Nakshatras (Stellar divisions = an Area of sky covering
13 deg 20 min approx) was considered differently even from Vedic period. Rigveda
gives ample proof for this.
Neither the word "Nakshatra" nor the word "Rasi" indicate constellations, but they are
technical terms for specific angular areas of ecliptic or moon path. It was and is better to
consider this areas of sky" and "constellations" differently once this systematization
happened. For Nakshatras it happened in Vedic period itself. For Rasi it happened (as
per available proof) in the period of Yajchavalkya smiri and Boudhayans soolbasutra. (yap,
it could have been much earlier as well). So now we have no right to mix and match the
term constellations with neither Nakshatras nor Rasis.
Again Kishore states - "The pole star also was earlier called Vega star( Abhijit?)" Abhijit
and Vega are the same?! I doubt. And we need the help of someone like Chandrahari
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who knows astronomy to clarify this doubt. I too have heard the story of Vega. It is a star
near Pole, near to Saptarshas (7 stars, Great bear constellation). Abhijit is a Star near to
moon path. Both are the same?! I wonder. But yap, I am not sure, needs clarification.
Kishore states -
Quote
Maharshi Vyas has recorded in Mahabharat, Vana Parva (Chap. 230,
Verses 8-11), a dialoge between Indra and Skanda where-in it is stated that: "Contesting
against Abhijit (Vega), the constellation Krittika (Pliedes) went to "Vana" the
Summer Solstice to heat the summer. Then the star Abhijit slipped down in the sky.
At that time Dhanishta was given the first place in the list of Nakshatras. Rohini was
also the first some time back. Now you decide what to do," said Indra.
Unquote
Once in this forum I have stated that - "once Abhijit was the base of Nakshatra
division based on Moon path. Only when Nakshatra division of Moon path is based on
Abhijit all the Yoga taras falls with in there respective divisions. But later this was
corrected mathematically and the Nakshatra divisions got associated with ecliptic". It is a
lesson I learned form Chandrahari ji. Can you provide the Sanskrit quote (in Sanskrit
itself), it could be a supportive evidence. May be it could also clarify the doubt on Vega
and Abhijit are the same or not.
I have heard about the study on fall of Vega, and I think somewhere I have read an
article by Pandit ji (Dr. Ketkar) on the same as well. Dear Panditji can you elaborate on
the same.
Pandit Arjun:
shivapuran mentions lord chandra (male) marrying the 27 stars, daughters of daksha, and
neglecting all the 26 wives with his obsession towards rohini. then daksha curses moon to
suffer from kshaya or loss of power/vitality (AIDS?), then chandra does penance at
somnath jyotirlinga after which lord shiva blesses him to regain his full energy for 14
days even as losing it fully for the preceding 14 days, since then moon started waning and
waxing for 14 days.
Since itihasas, vedas, mytholgies are all inexplicably intertwined, this story must have
happened long before the king chandra and his 27 wives became solid rock type stars. When
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chandra was a king and could have had 27 wives, why he is
treated as a female planet? Wish the more learnt members in the group, throw some
more light on this authentic shivapuran story.
Sreenadh:
Quote
When chandra was a king and could have had 27 wives, why he is treated as a
female planet? Unquote That is why I used to say - "it is wrong to mix-up Puranas and astrology".
* Astrology deals with systematic study of patterns of time and thus destiny.
* Puranas are trying to present History in a different mould. (Making it with a long story, and mixing with many subjects, and mixing with many allegoric stories aimed at ethics or the like etc etc)
Puranas are literary works that try to preserve "History". So it would be better useful for
the Historians, but not for astrologers. Of course we have some minimum use with Puranas,
but that is not in searching the logic behind some basic concepts. If we get trapped in
that vast forest of stories then astrology would misinterpreted and lost in the path.
Why Mo was treated a Female planet?
It is better to search for the answer in the foundation concepts of astrology. I know you will
come out with many logics that tell us why Mo was treated as a female planet based on
* Male/Female classification of signs
* Exaltation/Debilitation, Moolatrikona etc.
* Earth- Water-Fire-Air-Sky classification of signs
* Prime significance allotted to the planets etc :)
[Editors' comment: This thread stopped here abruptly. Even though started from an effort to discuss 'astrology in epic period', it never went into the depth or discussed the subject in detail, even though conveyed some useful knowledge. May be such is the case with all yahoo group discussions]
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2. Vasya Signs - Logic behind
[Participants: Sreenadh OG, DW, Vinita, Pandit Arjun] Sreenadh:
As per astrological classics, the following are the Vasya signs.
Sign Vasya Sign
Aries Leo and Scorpio
Taurus Cancer and Libra
Gemini Virgo
Cancer Scorpio and Sagittarius
Leo Libra
Virgo Gemini and Pisces
Libra Virgo and Capricorn
Scorpio Cancer
Sagittarius Pisces
Capricorn Aquarius and Aries
Aquarius Aries
Pisces Capricorn
What is the logic behind this concept? Let us try to understand. For
Aries, Leo and Scorpio are Vasya Signs. Why?
Leo - the lord of Leo gets exalted in Aries.
Scorpio - Aries and Scorpio are ruled by the same planet.
Rule : (1) If any other planet gets exalted in the sign then the sign ruled by that planet
could be a Vasya sign.
Rule : (2) If the lord of 2 signs are the same, the second sign could be a Vasya sign for the
first and vice-versa.
For Taurus, Libra and Cancer are Vasya signs. Why?
Cancer - Rule (1) applies here. Lord of Cancer Moon is exalted in Taurus.
Libra - Rule (1) applies here. Taurus and Libra are ruled by the same planet Ve. For
Gemini, Virgo is Vasya sign. Why?
Virgo - Rule (2) applies here. Gemini and Virgo are ruled by the same planet. For
Cancer, Scorpio and Sagittarius are Vasya signs. Why?
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Scorpio - Is there any connection? The lord of Cancer gets debilitated in Scorpio!! Both
Cancer and Scorpio are signs that represent reptiles - i.e. Sareesripa signs. The lord of
Scorpio gets debilitated in Cancer. So there is a very strong connection between the
two signs.
Rule : (3) The sign in which the lord of the first considered sign gets debilitated could be a
Vasya sign. (Here Mo gets debilitated in Scorpio)
Sagittarius - Rule (1) applies here. The lord of Sagittarius gets exalted in Cancer. For
Leo, Libra is Vasya sign. Why?
Lira - Rule (3) applies here. Lord of Leo Sun gets debilitated in Leo. For
Virgo, Gemini and Pisces are Vasya Signs. Why?
Gemini - Rule (2) applies. Gemini and Virgo are ruled by the same planet Me.
Pisces - Rule (3) applies. Lord of Virgo Me gets debilitated in Piaces.
For Libra, Virgo and Capricorn are Vasya signs. Why?
Virgo - Rule (3) applies. Lord of Libra gets debilitated in Virgo. Capricorn -
Rule (1) applies. Lord of Capricorn Sa gets exalted in Libra. For Scorpio,
Cancer is the Vasya sign. Why?
Cancer - Rule (3) applies. Lord of Scorpio Ma gets debilitated in Cancer. For
Sagittarius, Pisces is Vasya sign. Why?
Pisces - Rule (2) applies. Sagittarius and Pisces are ruled by the same planet Ju. For
Capricorn, Aquarius and Aries is Vasya sign. Why?
Aquarius - Rule (2) applies. Capricorn and Aquarius are ruled by the same planet Sa.
Aries - Rule (1) applies. The lord of Aries gets exalted in Capricorn.
For Aquarius, Aries is Vasya sign. Why?
Aquarius - Rule (3) applies. The lord of Aquarius gets debilitated in Aries. Fro
Pisces, Sagittarius is the Vasya sign. Why?
Sagittarius - Rule (2) applies. Pisces and Sagittarius are ruled by the same planet.
Lesson to remember: The sages never tell a thing without reason and Logic!! We just need
to search and find it out! !
DW:
What does this posting tell us in terms of interpretation? What can be learnt from this
posting? Is there a spiritual revelation? pi. clarify. For me vasya rearranged comes to
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20 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
vyasa and savya.
Sreenadh:
Thanks. Coming to our subject of discussion, i.e. Vasya Signs- Vasya means, mutual
attraction. The classics talk about signs which have some kind of mutual attraction. Put
in other words, the people born in Vasya signs (Asc or Moon sign)of each other gets
attracted to each other, either sexual attraction or friendship. Because of this
Vasya relation between the Lagna of the girl and boy. Vasya between the Moon signs of
girl and boy are considered. This concept is
normally used while horoscope matching for marriage. Vasya primarily indicates the
attraction we feel towards a person, just by seeing him/her, even before knowing
his/her abilities and qualities. It is the inherent quality of the horoscope and the sign in
which the person is born is causing this attraction. The concept of Vasya (Mutual
attraction) can also be used:
1) In Marriage compatibility (This is the traditional use)
2) In selecting your business partner.
3) In selecting your girl friend.
4) In selecting friends etc
Of course we are not selecting friends/business_partners/ghi_friends etc after horoscope matching. But if we have some real relations, we can check the horoscope to verify that, whether this principle of Vasya is there at work causing the bond, and helping us to strengthen the relation. I hope, though simple, having this sound and useful concept in our wallet of astrological knowledge, would be useful also in understanding the importance the great seers gave to the concept of Exaltation and Debilitation. Vinita Kumar:
The subject of astrology excites me but I get very confused about the basics. Sometimes I think I should just give it up - or I'm too old to start acquiring this kind of knowledge. Why is it that I miss the big picture - or have to struggle so much??? But maybe I find all this struggle fun too - something like trying to solve a difficult puzzle till I get the solution. In the same spirit I tried to find the logic behind the Vasya signs and got even more
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21 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
confused. Applying the 2 rules that Sreenadh mentioned (and expanding the rule of
exaltation to cover debilitation also) I have the following questions:
For Aries - Leo and Scorpio are the Vasya signs following the 2 rules. But following the
same rules why should Cancer and Capricorn not be VAsya signs since the ruler of Aries
gets debilitated in Cancer and exalted in Capricorn. {By the same logic, for instance)
Aries is the Vasya sign for Capricorn and Aquarius and Libra is the Vasya sign for
Taurus)
For any Vasya sign at least 2-3 additional signs meet the rules but they are not the
Vasya signs. Why?
Sreenadh:
This is one of the mails I was longing to see when I posted that message on Vasya
signs. :) Congratulations first for logically trying to analyze and study things in a
systematic way.
First of all let me clarify one thing. When I tried to understand the logic behind Vasya signs,
I found not just 3 rules, but 5 rules, and a sign gets accepted as a Vasya sign if at least
according to 2 of those rules that sign becomes a Vasya sign!!! This well explains the fact
why some of the signs are not considered as Vasya signs as well, even though some
relations exist between them. Yes, you guessed it. The earlier message on Vasya signs was
a simplified version, just indicating only the most important rules. One more thing, these
are NOT the rules that are given in classics, but the result of our thought, why Vasya
relationship is ascribed to these signs only.
The 5 possible rules that are considered for determining Vasya signs
1) Signs owned by planets with same bhootatipatya, are vasya signs to each other. But if two signs are owned by the same planet, then this rule is applicable only if that sign is the first one of those two (starting from Aries), or if the sign is the Moolatrikona sign. (For Sun and Moon Bhootathipatya is not assigned)
2) If the lord of the sign is debilitated in some sign, then that sign could be a Vasya sign to the first. This rule is applicable only to the sign that is second (if 2 sings are owned by the same planet) starting from Aries. Or to the sign that is not moolatrikona for any planet.
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22 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
3) The signs which are the swakshetra of the same planet are vasya signs to each other. But if two signs are owned by the same planet, then this rule is applicable only if that sign is the first one of those two (starting from Aries).
4) If a planet is exalted in the considered sign, the sign owned by that exalted planet could be a vasya sign. But this rule is applicable only if the sign owned by the exalted planet comes as 3rd, 4th, or 6th of the considered sign.
5) If a planet is debilitated in the considered sign, then the signs owned by that planet could be vasya signs. But this rule is applicable, only if the sign owned by the debilitated planet comes as 3rd, 4th, or 6th of the considered sign.
These are the only five rules that are considered for Vasya signs, it seems. Let us consider each sign and apply these rules and see what is the result we get. For - Aries
— (1) .v
Le, Sc (2) -
(3) Sc ^T
(4)- VV^
(5)" O^
Therefore Le and Sc are considered as Vasya signs for Ar.
Taurus
(1) . Q*
Cn, Li (2) -
(3) Li (4) ^
Cn (5) -
Therefore Cn and Li are considered as Vasya signs for Ta
Gemini
(1)
Vi
(2) -(3) Vi (4) -
(5)-
Therefore Vi is considered as Vasya signs for Ge.
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Cancer
(l)Ta, Li (2) Sc (3) - (4) Sg
(5)- -
Therefore Sc and Sg are considered as Vasya signs for Cn. The signs indicated by the first rule is ignored since Bhootathipatya is not assigned to Mo, i.e. lord of Cn. Leo
(6) Ar, Sc
(7) Li (8) ry
- (9) - KJ^
(10)- ^y?
Therefore Li is considered as Vasya signs for Le. The signs indicated by the first rule is
ignored since Bhootathipatya is not assigned to Su, i.e. lord of Le. It is too much
typing and so I make it short for the remaining signs.
For Virgo - we get, as per rule 1, Ge ; and as per rule 2 Pi; remaining gives blank. So
Ge and Pi are vasya signs for Vi.
For Li -We get as per rule 2, Vi ; and as per rule 4, Cp; remaining gives blank. So Vi
and Cp are vasya signs for Li.
For Sc - We get, as per rule 2, Cn ; remaining gives blank. Therefore, Cn is the vasya sign for Sc.
For Sg -We get, as per rule 1, Pi; and as per rule 3 Pi ; remaining gives blank. Therefore Pi is the vasya sign for Sg.
For Cp - We get, as per rule 1, Aq; and as per rule 3 Aq; and as per rule 4 Ar ; remaining gives blank. Therefore Aq and Ar are vasya sings for Cp.
For Aq - We get, as per rule 2 Ar ; remaining gives blank. Therefore Ar is the vasya sign for Aq.
For Pi - We get, as per rule 2 Co; ; remaining gives blank. Therefore Cp is the vasya sign for Pi.
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24 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
This is just the result of exercising my own brain, and cant be sure that it was the
original logic employed by the Rishis. But this logic gives, proper signs as vasya rasis
we could see. If you find it not sufficient make your own amendments and use it. [Editor:
This thread branch died-out with this message. But some forwards from other groups
and some branching discussions kept it alive for some more time and helped in new
knowledge imparting]
Sreenadh:
I am posting here a message that I have posted on another forum, while discussing the
same. Hope this would generate some valuable discussion in this forum as well. Here it
follows -
Vasya attraction between the Lagna signs or Moon signs is one of the criterion for
determining the mutual attraction between two individuals. It is NOT the lone criterion
for determining the same! The are other systems that are used for the same purpose
such as the one known as "RanaRanee Bhava" compatibility in marriage
compatibility, which also speak about the placement of Lagna lord,
7th lord, Lagna and Moon Navamsa etc. There is another system called "Rasi vasyam" to
have a primary understanding about the sexual attraction (and compatibility) between
people born on different signs. As you know there are some Nakshatra based rules as well
to do the same. It is due to the existence of these many authentic rules, which gives prime
importance to different factors
that, we consider all of them in the marriage compatibility (along with other rules to
validate the future incidents in life) and come to a conclusion almost in a statistical
manner!! Yes, I agree, it is not the statistics but the understanding of the astrologer
about the future events in store for the couple is more important. But the well founded rules
like Vasya really needs consideration, and should be
appreciated.
The period of influence for any YOGA in horoscope is determined by DASA and
supporting GOCHARA. YOGA could be 1) Sign based, 2) Bhava based, 3) Planet based,
4) Sign-Bhava based, 5) Sign-Planet based, 6) Bhava-Planet based, or 7)Sign- Bhava-
Planet based. You can rephrase the above terminology based on Nakshatra as well. But
the Vasya I told is not a YOGA! It is more related to the basic nature of the sign itself. I
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25 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
will elaborate little further: Point -1
The nature of a sign is determined based on divisions such as:
1) Kalapurusha (1 fold)
2) The Male-Female classification (2 fold)
3) Chara-Stira-Ubhaya, Srishti-Stiti-Samhara etc (3 fold)
4) Satya-Dwapara-Treta-Kali Yogadi etc (4 fold)
5) Earth-Water-Fire-Air-Sky (Pancha bhootadi)etc (5 fold) etc. Point -2
The nature of the sign is further clarified based on the following or similar concepts which fundamentally depends on the underlying concepts noted as point -1 . They are:
1) Rasyadhipatya
2) Exaltation-Debilitation
3) Human-Watery-Reptail-Quadrapad etc Point -3
The concepts that are based on concepts noted under point 1 or point 2 or similar ones.
1) Rasi Vasya and RasiBhava vasya
2) Preeti signs etc etc.
Actually concepts noted under points 2 and 3, which are fundamentally based on the primary concepts or in turn on the secondary concepts needs to be pondered more, logically, so as to bringout the essential logic used by Rishis in designing them. Point -4
All of these are not YOGAS since the YOGA concept came into existence only in the horoscope. But here (in Vasya etc) we are actually speaking about the nature of the sign, rather than the horoscope itself!! I think the point is clear at least to an extend, and expects more inputs from the leaned members. [Editor: No response came for this message and it seemed that either none is interested in this subject or that nobody is aware of this subject. Then came a detailed response from Arjun ji causing the thread to branch out to other areas of knowledge such as Marriage compatibility as well] Pandit Arjun:
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26 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
Firstly my sincere appreciation of the deep insight given to one factor considered in
matching two charts for compatibility. This reconfirms the fact that the knowledge of
astrology is like a ocean and one birth is not sufficient to master all. at least I would die
at a student level only.
Dinam, ganam, mahendram, dheergham, yoni, rasi, rasyadhipati, vasyam, rajju, vedha or
dosham, gothram, nakshatram, pakshi, bhootam and others are all listed for
measuring each parameter of compatibility required in any relation between two
individuals. To add to these, manglik dosham, kaalasarpa dosham, grahana dosham,
besides various modern men researched or invented doshams are all there.
Unfortunately, the various measuring tools mentioned in various medieval classics have
some inherent contradictions. However, in my personal experience, after studying all
these things, when I learnt Lalkitab and its simplistic one chart based predictive
technique, I am not focusing on these micro level comprehensive analysis based on
various measuring tools, also while stars and planets are existing in nature, signs are
mythical in nature.
Under vasya matching we see which Sign is amenable and affable to another. This is seen
both from the boy's sign to girl's sign and also vice versa. However, two signs of the same
planet are not mutually vasya viz. Aries to Scorpio, Sagittarius to Pisces, Capricorn to
Aquarius and Taurus to Libra whereas Gemini and Virgo
are mutually vasya. This sounds illogical.
In Sarvartha Chintamani, the Pachakadi measuring system is a simple tool to predict the
relative strength of each planet in a chart both in relation to other planets as well as houses
by categorizing Pachak, Bodhak, Karak and Vedhak. here also we see some
contradictions.
My humble submission is that in astrology there is no one single measuring tool to come
to a conclusive observation on one parameter due to so many overriding rules. This is
where a practicing astrologer if follows saatvik lifestyle and develops divine intuition,
due to the vaak suddhi and vaak siddhi, the reading, analysis and prediction become
simpler in an unscientific manner. Albeit this sounds illogical to scientific community, i
have been healing and predicting this way. over and above, we have astrology derived
from Hindu mythology. While according to mythology we treat planets including
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27 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
satellite moon as gods and worship their personalities, astronomy and science paints
them as balls of some mass, while the science says how moon waxes and wanes, all
Puranas says how moon was cursed with kshaya roga (one modern researcher attributed
AIDS to moon saying kshaya and AIDS both makes the native lose energy)due to his
neglecting of his 27 wives, how the modern man perceives these contradictions - to
see stars as wives and planets as husbands or just balls of some light. Still the quest for
knowing more continues and we keep reading, knowing and learning more with continued
consistency. May Jupiter's light shine on all of us.
Sreenadh:
Thanks for the good mail. I highly appreciate those sincere thoughts. I feel that it is
unsystematic (i.e. non-classified) view of the concepts presented, is causing us the
trouble in understanding the (actually well classified!!) ideas put forward by saints and
acharyas. I will clarify: -
Let us approach the first confusion encountered by any one approaching and trying to
use marriage compatibility. You stated it nicely.
Quote
Dinam, ganam, mahendram, dheergham, yoni, rasi, rasyadhipati, vasyam, rajju,
vedha or dosham, gothram, nakshatram, pakshi,bhootam and others are all listed for
measuring each parameter of compatibility required in any relation between two
individuals, toadd to these, manglik dosham, kaalasarpa dosham, grahana dosham,
besides various modern man researched or invented doshams are all there.
Unfortunately, the various measuring tools mentioned in various medieval classics
have some inherent contradictions.
Unquote
I agree. It would be the prime view that would be felt by any sincere person
approaching marriage compatibility. But the point is that- The Acharyas have
classified compatibility considerations stated above by you (dinam, ganam etc..) as
("Agoodha Goodha Bhedena dwidha hi khadana gunai"):
I. Agoodha (Non-hidden) marriage compatibility considerations
Eg: Rasi, Rasyadhipa, Vasya, Gana, Mahendra, Yoni, etc II.
Goodha (Hidden) marriage compatibility considerations
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28 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
Eg: Drishti (Liking), Mana (Love), Deha (Health and Body), Vidya-Vinaya
(Education), Stanabhijatya (Status&Position), Vaya (Age) etc Now the Non-hidden (Agoodha) marriage compatibility considerations are again classified into four.
1) Sign Based
Eg: Rasi, Rasi-vasya, Rasi-Yoni, Rasi-Bhoota, Rasi-Varna etc
2) Sign-lord Based
Eg: Rasyadhipa, Rasi-bhava vasya (The logic of which I have described earlier in
this forum) etc 3)Star Based
Eg: Gana, Dina, Mahendra, Strideerkha, Nakshatra-Yoni etc. 4) Star related (Not important)
Eg: Nakshatra-bhoota, Nakshatra-Pakshi, Nakshatra-Mriga, Nakshatra-Linga, Tara-
Maitri, Rina-dhana etc. Of the above four the first 4 are direct "application" of some ancient concepts in marriage compatibility. (The marriage compatibility system originated later only compared to those concepts). The compatibility considerations given as Nakshatra- related are may of still later application of some Nakshatra related concepts into compatibility, and many acharyas have told us that they should not be given much importance. Now comes the considering the star based Doshas. Yes, except one of them (i.e. Vedha) all of these are star based, and therefore the importance is to that extent only.
1) Nakshatra- Vedha : Though the word Nakshatra is there in the name, it is actually a method for locating star combinations, that fall in the Shashtashtama (6-8 axis) signs that cause the most trouble. So in essence it considers Sign and Nakshatra.
2) Nakshatra varga vedha
3) Rajju Dosha etc
But till now, except the general qualities of sign and star, the planetary placement in horoscope is not considered. So let us consider if the planetary placement supports/indicates marriage between those 2 people, by using, 1) Rana- Ranee Bhava (Structural compatibility between horoscopes) and Now let us
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compare the placement of malefic in the horoscope in a 'general' manner, by using,
2) Papa samya (Mangala dosha is just something comes with in this)
Actually all the systems said above are child's play, and the real ability and
understanding of the astrologer in understanding the horoscope, is used from here
onwards, i.e. Now we have to check for:
• Chance for having children
• Death/Divorce
• Poverty and scope for economic success
• Possible Health problems in future
• Lesbian/Gay nature of male/female
Yes, All of these together it is popularly known as Jataka Poruta (meaning 'Horoscope Matching') which indicates that this is the most important considerations in horoscope matching and also that these are to be looked IN HOROSCOPE rather than in the mere name of sign or star.
Now consider the Agoodha compatibility options as well based on our understanding of the family, education, status, health etc of male and female and their family! The relatives of bride and groom will do this, even if the astrologer is not doing it. So we don't have to worry much about it.
This is the well-classified system put forward by the Acharyas. Can we call it un- scientific, or unsystematic?! We follow it or not, the situations allow us to do it or not, etc are all our trouble and the Acharyas should not be blamed for that! ! Quote
This is where a practicing astrologer if follows saatvik lifestyle and develops divine
intuition, due to the vaak suddhi and vaak siddhi, the reading, analysis and
prediction become simpler Unquote
Yes, yes, all this is necessary, and I agree completely. But would like to add that, we should add it up to the above (systematic understanding of the system put forward by the Acharyas) for the best results. Quote
Stars and planets are existing in nature, signs are mythical in nature.
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30 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
Unquote
I disagree!! Why? I will explain.
1) Stars: They are also mythical (following your terminology) since we are talking about stellar divisions and NOT Yoga taras. Our star (i.e. Nakshatra) is 'an area in sky', a stellar division, covering 13 deg 20 min. Thus become mythological due to the same reason you ascribed to rasi.
2) Rasis (Signs) : They are also mythological (following your terminology) since they represent 'an area in sky' covering 30 deg.
3) Planets: They are also mythological, since in astrology, we are not talking about the planets that physical entities having no special qualities and significance 9we ascribe to them in astrology). But instead we are talking about Sun that is Father and Atma karaka, Moon that is mother and water, Mars that is warrior etc!!! If not mythological how will you understand it scientifically!! I will better agree upon using the word 'concept' or 'hypothetical construct' rather than the word 'mythological'. In astrology
1) Signs 2) Nakshatras 3) Planets 4) Bhavas(Houses) become concepts!!! Actually these are the basic 'constructs' in astrology (similar to 'Vata-Pita-Kapha' in Ayurveda and 'Vital force' in naturopathy) and that is why significance is assigned to these 4 categories only. :) I think you will support this view which helps us much, in understanding the logical system called astrology, and understanding it as a system that fits into 'holistic approach'. :) Quote
Over and above, we have astrology derived from Hindu mythology. While according to mythology we treat planets including satellite moon as gods and worship their personalities, astronomy and science paints them as balls of some mass, while the science says how moon waxes and wanes, all puranas says how moon was cursed with kshaya roga due to his neglecting of his 27 wives, how the modern man perceives these contradictions - to see stars as wives and planets as husbands or just balls of some light. Unquote
Here also the problem is with understanding the views of ancient Rishi's in there own light, I mean the system provided by they themselves. I will explain: In their holistic approach
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31 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
to subjects under study, the ancient Rishis from the period of Vedas itself, uses approaches such as-
1) Adhi-Bhowtika
2) Adhi-Daivika etc.
Ascribing human nature or thinking that a divine god/goddess with a particular shape/body/qualities is present within 'each and every material' (They left nothing! It was a system of study!) is a method utilized by the saints in study!! But, yes, I should agree that, this lead to too many misunderstandings and confusions. But we should also understand that, this system of study is beautifully utilized in astrology which negates this disqualification ascribed to it. Just see how beautifully we can picturize things, when we see- Sun - as a king, with a strong and matured body Moon - as a queen, with a motherly nature Venus - as the beautiful lady Gulika - as the snake etc ! ! The same system is in use, when we see - Aries - as Ram Taurus - as Ox etc as well!!
It is better to have a closer look at the logical systems used by the Rishis, such as Adhi- Bhowtika, Adhi-Daivika etc and also to have a closer look at the holistic system of study, before jumping into conclusions.
It is easy to ascribe/accept everything as part of mythology, but I would add that, it does not help much in understanding the systematic approach of our ancient seers. :) Understanding the system they followed, in their own terms, is what we lacked till date, and better than late to save our ancient knowledge in good shape, let us try to do that. PS: It is the bigger picture, and the exact understanding of outlines of the subject under scrutiny is of importance in any study. That makes our work simpler. [Editor: No reply came to this message and the thread died out - the disagreement in ideas never put into words, may be since Arjun ji didn't wanted to make it a controversy]
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3. A Secret Exposed!
[Participants: Sreenadh OG, Souvik Datta] [Editor: This conversation deal with 2 methods used by astrologers to understand and reveal - What the prasna is about? The first method is based on a quote from Prasnamarga and the second is based on a quote from Brihat Jataka by Varaha mihira. Heading is given to identify the sections that deals with these methods] Method - 1 Sreenadh:
In Prasnamarga it is said that "if a person with true inquisitiveness is approaching an astrologer, then the astrologer should tell him about problem he is facing and should suggest the appropriate solution". But how? How should we (astrologers) know, what the qurent is thinking about, if he is presenting the query by himself? In places like Kerala, usually a person approaches an astrologer and just says : "I want to cast a prasna." ! ! ! ! And it becomes the responsibility of the astrologer to decipher:
1) What the prasna is about?
2) What is the possible solution for the problem faced by the qurent?
Yes. It is real challenge!! A challenge towards the capability of the astrologer, and also
about the accuracy of horary astrology!! How the learned astrologers solve this
situation? Do you want to know? Then read on -
There are 2 slokas (good and authentic) that help the traditional astrologer to predict
what the qurent is thinking about or what the query is about. One of them is from
Prasnamarga and the other is from Varaha Hora. In this mail I will explain the first one
- the one from Prasnamarga. The sloka is like this:
Aprishtatha prishtatho va jinchasyoresya kasyachil Hora
Kendra Trikonebhya Subhasubha Phalam Vadeth
Actually this sloka is not of Prasnamarga, but of Vasishta Hora. The author of
Prasnamarga has just quoted (included) this sloka from Vasishta Hora as evident from
the next sloka -
"Vasita vachanadasmath " Meaning, Since Rishi Vasishta said this and also me
(author of Prasnamarga)
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Yes, since Rishi Vasishta told this secret and author of Prasnamarga (Edakkad
Nambootiri) supported it, the sloka gets double authenticity!! What is the meaning of
that sloka? Let me quote it again:
"Aprishtatha prishtatho va jinchasyoresya kasyachil
Hora Kendra Trikonebhya Subhasubha Phalam Vadeth"
Meaning, If somebody approaches the astrologer with curiosity, even if he asks or not,
the astrologer should give predictions to him, BASED ON HORA, KENDRA AND
TRIKONA. Yes, it seems to be simple, and it seems that there is no secret hiding
behind. NO! It is not like that! There is lot to explain a SECRET behind, as is known to
all traditional astrologers. What is that? The advice by Vasishta is that prediction
should be based on "Hora Kendra Trikonebhya". What is "Hora"? "Horeti legman
Bhavanasyachardham" (Varaha hora) -
Meaning, Hora is the name for Lagna (Asc) or Half of a sign. For our above sloka, the
meaning Hora=Lagna is the apt one. There for in essence it means, if there is any planet
in the Lagna, then the qurent is seeking answer to the things indicated by that placement
of that particular planet!
If there is no planet in Lagna, then what to do? Read on the sloka- "Hora -> Kendra->" Yes,
if there is no planet in Lagna, then look for the placement of planets in Kendra. Kendra
means 4th 7th and 10th Houses/Signs from Lagna. Now the question is where to look - In
4th, in 7th or in 10th? The traditional answer to this question is first in 10th. Why? Because
if you look in Laghu parasari, you will see the statement "Pradabala Utharotharam",
Meaning for Kendras the strength increases in the order 4th->7th-
>10th. That means 7th is stronger Kendra than 4th, and 10th is stronger Kendra than
7th. Indications the strength order 10>7>4. So look at the 10th house first. If there is no
planet in Lagna, then if there is a planet in 10th house, then the query is related to that
placement! If there is no planet in 10th as well, then look in 7th to see whether there is
any planet in it, if not look in 4th.
Now what to do if there is no planet in Lagna as well as 10th, 7th and 4th? Look what the
sloka says? "Hora -> Kendra->Trikonebhya" Yes, if there is no planet in Kendra, we have
to look for the placement of planet in Trikona, meaning 5th and 9th. Now, here also
where to look? In 5th or 9th. The statement "Prabala Utharotharam" applies here as well.
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That means 9th is stronger trikona than 5th and so we have to look for the placement of any
planet in 9th first! Now you can say that, if there is no planet in Lagna and Kendra (10-
7-4) then look for planets in 9th or 5th. If there is a planet in
9th then the prasna is related to that. If 9th is vacant and if there is a planet in 5th then the
prasna is related to that.
If there is no planets in Lagna, Kendra and Trikona, then what to do? Then there is no point
in that prasna, since the person is in an utterly problematic unsolvable situation, and even
the guidance by the astrologer would be of no use to him. But still, there also you can look
for the bad placement of Lagna lord first. I think at least for some the method is clear by
now. Somebody can come forward with examples, to check how much it becomes true in
his own experience. Of course, the secret is not complete. There exists 1 more method
(as told earlier, from Varaha Hora) that is used for the same purpose (i.e. locating the
underlying problem that caused the qurent to approach the astrologer). The learned
astrologers use this method (the method described earlier), and the one given in Varaha hora
together, and considering the indications supplied by both of them come to a conclusion. I
will explain the other method in another mail. Till then, let us experiment with this
method.
SouvikDatta:
Bravo! Bravo! Indeed hats off to Sreenadh ji! Beautiful theory. I see it working right in front of my eyes! Thirsty for more Sreenadh ji, thirsty for much more :) Student Always
Sreenadh:
Don't agree so easily Souvik ji, even if you are feeling it is correct. Probe it from all sides using logic and examples so that the discussions could flourish revealing new knowledge and understanding. Even if much trained, participating in real battles makes the warrior perfect, and in the same way a theory should find its success only after much logical probing and experimentation. Yes, then it becomes perfect, trustworthy and dependable one. Here the theory put forward by Rishi Vasishta, seems to be a very useful and dependable one, concluding from the fact that hundreds of traditional astrologers are using it successfully (along with some more complementary theories) to answer the question that raises in their mind : "What this man (qurent) wants
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to ask?"
SouvikDatta:
The theory you have stated is indeed true as I tested it yesterday but again I agree that it is the exceptions that prove a theory.
Sreenadh:
I am really happy to know that. See the second method used by the traditional astrologers as well. Use the 2 methods in a combined manner, since, the first method gives prime importance to "House- Planet" combination, and the second method gives prime importance to "Sign-Planet" combination. Yes, both of them are not that limited, since the astrologer who uses is can consider "Sign-House-Planet" Combination, along with aspects always. But important point is that we should know, how to follow the systematic thought sequence (logical systematic astrological thinking method) indicated by the Rishis, for which the above methods stands as examples.
Method - 2
Sreenadh:
In Prasnamarga it is said that "if a person with true inquisitiveness is approaching an
astrologer, then the astrologer should tell him about problem he is facing and should
suggest the appropriate solution". But how? Let us see, how the traditional astrologer are
approaching this question, by making use of a Varaha Hora sloka. Which sloka is that? I
will quote it for you.
"Kandaka Kendra Chatushtaya samjcha
Saptama Lagna Chaturdha Khabhanam
Teshu yedheshu hithabhi baladya
Keeta narambu chara pasavascha"
Meaning, Kandaka, Kendra, Chatushtaya are respectively names for 7th, 1st and 4th
Houses. Of them Reptail signs, Human signs and Water signs, and quadruped sign are
strong in order.
i.e. In 7th House = Reptail Sign is strong. In
1st House = Human Sign is strong.
In 4th House = Water Sign is strong.
In 10th House = quadruped (four footed animal) sign is strong.
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This seems to be simple. What secret is there? How can it help us in understanding the
thought of the qurent? Wait... Wait.. I will explain. Think that the presna Arudha (or
Lagna) at the time of query was Aries. Now look is the 7th house a reptile sign (Sc and Cn)?
No. Is the 1st hose a Human sign? No. Is the 4th House (Cn) a water sign? Yes! Is the
10th House a quadruped sign? well, yes/no, it is Cp, partially water sign and partially
quadruped sign. OK. Thus is means that the 4th house (the born home/native place of the
qurent where his mother, father, brothers, sisters and relative are present)
is (at the time of prasna) a very strong influence and controlling force in that persons
life.
But what is the natural tendency of the Lagna? Lagna (In this case, Aries) is a
quadruped sign, which should naturally gets its strength if placed in 10th!! That means
the natural tendency of the person is to concentrate and immerse himself in work! He is
more interested in work, and don't like any disturbances in that, but the family is
holding him back! !
Yes, with the fact alone that Aries is the ascent, you are able to reach this much! Now,
whether this influence +ve or negative? Whether his actual problem is the family (4th
house) or the job (10th house)? To know this look at the chart again to see the
placement of 4th lord and 10th lord, and also see how strong is Lagna/Lagna lord?
1) If 4th lord is badly placed then the bad influence or condition of the family/relatives is causing the trouble.
2) If the 10th lord is badly placed then the loss of expected success / failures / problems in job is causing the trouble.
3) If the Lagna is strong and lagna lord is well placed (they indicate the qurent himself) then the qurent is able and the problem is just with the situation. If not the inability (financial or otherwise) of the qurent is also causing the situation to become worse!
Does it mean that all prasna indicates bad things only? No! It is not like that. When presna Arudha (or Lagna) is Aries and if there is no problem with 4th and if there is a well placed planet in 10th then the query is related to 10th, about a positive subject, such as a promotion in job or the like! Similarly if there is no problem with 10th and if there is a well placed planet in 4th (e.g Mo) then he is
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thinking of constructing a new house or the like for sure!! (i.e. something that the 4th
house and the planet placed in it signify) Yes, I have explained the example situation
by taking Aries as Lagna (at the time of query). Now if Taurus is Lagna/Arudha at the
time of query, then what? Yes you know the answer.
The sign "that becomes strong" is the 7th house, since it is a retail sign. (Retail signs
are strong in 7th) - So the query could be about marriage or a marital problem. The
"that should become strong" (or the natural tendency of the Taurus lagna) is 10th
house. (Taurus in a quadruped sign) - so he should better concentrate on work. Does
he do so? or is it causing the current problem? Locate what the qurent wants to ask
about (could be either good or bad situations) basing your thinking on these lines. It is
easy to locate - combined with the additional clues the planetary placement gives us!! I
think atleast to some of us the idea is clear by now. The traditional astrologers try to
logically locate the prime problem/thought of the qurent by using both these
principles. If both of them leads them to the same conclusion, then usually they won't
allow the qurent to speak, and tell his problem on his face, and thus catching him in
absolute surprise!! Once this happens then it becomes a very easy task for the
astrologer since, after that what ever he says would be accepted by the qurent by not
even without a question!
The good astrologers take it as a positive tool to give good guidance and counseling to
the qurent and direct him in the right path. Bad astrologers - humm...You know what
that do....
Yes, that is why it is said that astrology is a double edged sward. It can be used to
guide the qurent to the right path, or to make him believe and first and then destroy
him/cheat him totally, by giving wrong guidance! Yes, I agree, all knowledge is
similar - good in the hands of good people, and bad in the hands of bad people. Ok.
Those were some side thoughts - back to astrology. Experiment with the above
principle.
Lesson to remember: Some slokas that seems simple hides ample secrets within!! And it
demands hard efforts form the part of us to bring them out.
SouvikDatta:
As usual splendid, Sreenadhji. You do not leave a pinch of doubt! However, can I ask
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you a very basic question?
Can you please let me know the basis of classification of the Rasis into reptile, water,
quadruped and human signs and also would it be possible to give a list of those rasis
for our benefit. Ever grateful!
Sreenadh:
Depend on your clear understanding, since the list given by various texts may vary
slightly. ;) I won't talk much about the conflicts in texts, but will explain how to
depend on your clear understanding of the symbolic shapes ascribed to signs. Let us
consider the (imaginary) shape that is ascribed to each signs:
1) Aries: The Sanskrit word is 'Mesha', meaning Ram (uncastrated male sheep). As you know it is a four footed animal, so, Aries is a quadruped sign.
2) Taurus: The Sanskrit word is 'Vrishabha', meaning Ox. Yes, it is also a quadruped and thus Taurus a quadruped sign.
3) Gemini: The Sanskrit word is 'Midhuna', meaning couple (A Male and A Female standing together). So it is clear that it is a Biped human sign. (But this sign also represents many beings with 2 legs, Biped, such as chicken etc as well, since the synonym 'Jootuma', of Gemini represents chicken, or many other 2 legged birds that mingle with humans. Remember it is the same situation with all the other signs as well. Each sign is significator of many living beings. I am not going into it, since I want to limit this mail to the subject under discussion)
4) Cancer: The Sanskrit word is 'Karkata', meaning crab (yes, the crab that lives in water). Here a confusion popes up. The Nakshatra 'Aslesha' represents snake, the Nakshatra Pushyami has got the other name 'bee hive'. Many saints have told us that we can think about all the non-poisonous reptiles with cancer sign. So in short it is a reptile sign. Actually the word used by saints is 'Sareesripa', any thing that move with it belly, such as snake, chameleon et. (This sign could represent not only reptiles but also bees, crabs, fish, butterflies etc as well) To represent such beings only 2 signs are used, Sc and Cn, and so this is a reptile sign for sure. But as you know the crab lives in water, and the sign itself represent, a pure water (not salty water) pond, and therefore it is a water sign as well. So cancer could be a reptile sign or a watery sign! And so the confusion.
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5) Leo: The Sanskrit word is 'Simha', meaning Lion. Yes, for sure it is a quadruped sign.
6) Virgo : The Sanskrit word is 'Kanya', meaning virgin lady. Yes, it is a Biped (human sign) for sure. It is symbolically depicted that this lady is traveling in a boat through a river with plant in one hand and fire in other. So there could arise a confusion that it is a water sign as well. But there is not much support for this argument, as far as the main classification is concerned. Yes, the presence of water becomes important, if you are thinking about the availability of water, with the use of prasan or the like, otherwise we can discard it, and it is a human sign for sure.
7) Libra: The Sanskrit word is 'Tula', meaning balance. The symbolic pictorial representation of the sign is of a man with a balance (the measuring instrument) in his hands, sitting is a street side market, selling something. So for sure it is a human sign.
8) Scorpio: The Sanskrit word is 'Vrischika', meaning Scorpion itself. The sign has got other names such as Snake, bee hive etc as well. As stated earlier it is one of the 2 'Sareesripa' signs, any thing that move with it belly, so for sure it is a Reptile sign. It represents anything that is poisonous and deadly.
9) Sagittarius: The Sanskrit name is 'Dhanu', meaning bow. It is symbolically represented as a kingly warrior with bows and arrows, but the portion below hip of that person is horse like! So here also there is little amount of confusion. It is said that, the 1st half of Sagittarius is quadruped and the remaining half human.
10) Capricorn: The Sanskrit name is 'Makara', meaning crocodile as well as big fish (like shark). The symbolic representation of the sign is half crocodile like and the remaining half dear like! So here also confusion exists. But yes, the first half of Capricorn could be considered as water sign and the remaining half Quadruped sign.
11) Aquarius: The Sanskrit name is 'Kumbha' meaning pot. The symbolic representation is, a man with a pot in his hand going in search of water. So it is for sure a human sign. But the presence of Pot in the symbolic representation of the sign makes someone think that it is a water sign as well, which is false, since the pot is empty.
12) Pisces: The Sanskrit name is 'Jhasha', meaning fish. Yes, fish that lives in salt water. The sign itself represents the sea. So it is watery sign for sure.
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This I think makes the subject clear. Due to this situation, it is better to depend on the
symbolic representation, and your own clear understanding of that symbolic
representation, to classify the signs, than depending on some slokas without thinking. If
you just try to depend on slokas, you will find slokas, that seems to be
contradicting each other in the first look. But when you understand the base of this
naming you will see that there is no conflict/contradiction between the statements of
Saints/Acharyas. :) There are 2 related points that also should be explained.
Signs are Symbolic
The shapes ascribed to the signs are symbolic. The saints wanted those signs to
indicate several significance for which the sign stands for and that is why that
particular symbol/shape is ascribed to that sign. I will explain. For example take Libra.
The symbol is of a man sitting with a balance in his hand weighing something, in a
market place. So for sure, Libra represents a town, humans, measuring instruments,
food that is eatable for humans, road, crowd, logically correct arguments, interest in
mathematics, business men, learned, luxury, love for good life etc. See how clear it is!
The same is the situation with other symbols.
Significance and its classification
Significance are assigned only to - 1) Signs 2) Nakshatras 3) Houses 4) Planets What
can they signify? Each of them can represent 'any thing' present in the world!! Or in
other words, each of them represents, 'every thing' present in the world! Try to
classify them yourself. For example a sign could represent-
1) Humans (classify them based on relationship/cast/job/gender etc)
2) Plants (classify them based on water/land/creeper/tree etc)
3) Animals (classify them based on carnivores /herbivores/wild etc)
4) Non living things (classify them based on metal/non-metal/liquid/gas etc)
Yes, you could extend this list. This same rule for classification of significance for
sign applies to Nakshatras, Houses and Plants as well. But the problem is that,
due to the vastness this list and the subject you can not find proper lists in classics, but
only simple directions. The slokas are just pointers, that directs you, the way through
which you would have to exercise on your own thinking ability. :
"Ohm Sahanavavtu....Sahanou bhunaktu...Saha veeryam karavavahai..."
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Sreenadh:
I would just like to add some more info. About the sloka taken from Varaha hora. That
concept of Human sign becoming strong in Lagna, Water sign in 4th, Retail sign in 7th
and Quadruped sign in 10th is not a new idea introduced by Mihira. The Garga Hora
sloka stating the same is also available. Garga was a famous sage of the Jaina
Parampara, and might have lived in the time of Skanda himself, since
may ideas mentioned by Skanda by 'others', found its place in Garga Hora. Skanda is
the author of first book on astrology, known as Skanda hora (many slokas of which is
still available). Skanda hora is also called Jyotishmati Upanishad. Most of the Rishi
horas like Brihat Prajapatya, Vasishta Hora, Kousika Hora, Sounaka Hora etc are
based on Skanda Hora. All these texts are already lost though many slokas and
references about these texts are available in many medieval astrological classics. Varaha
Mihira might have collected the above mentioned idea, possibly from Garga or Skanda.
The Garga kula provided many texts and gurus (Garga, Gargi, Gargya, Rishiputra
etc), like the Arsha stream (Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, Viswamitra, Sounaka etc)
that followed the ideas put forward by Skanda. Yes, it is a mysterious literary history,
that needs a lot of study and data collection. Just supplying some side thoughts. Point to
remember:
1) The "Hora Kendr Trikona " theory finds its authenticity in Vasishta Hora.
2) The "Kandaka Kendra" theory finds its authenticity in Garga Hora. Curious! Isn't it?!
4. Meaning of the word 'Jyotish'
[Vinita, Sreenadh OG, Nalini, Souvik Datta] Vinita: Quote
"Jyotisha Phalamadesa, Phalarthamarambhanam bhavati loke" (Astrology is for prediction, all efforts are just to streamline prediction) Unquote
Dosn't "Jyotisha" mean Jyoti + Isha = light of god. Why should prediction alone be important in astrology??? Was Jyotisha meant only for predictions by the sages or to
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understand / comprehend / (maybe) experience the light of god???
So symbolism in astrology may reveal certain hidden meanings - but to confine or use
these meanings only for prediction ? I am not sure if that alone is the purpose of
astrology Personally I wouldn't care so much for predictions. But I do want to
understand things spoken by the sages
Nalini:
I too believe that astrology is not meant to predict alone, more to decipher your secret code. The purpose of the very life, how well are we living it, as it was meant to be? I feel many of our questions would be answered if we care to probe into the finer layers. Don't you think understanding astrology gives us a fresh perspective of life?
Sreenadh:
The word Jyotish or Jyotisha does not seems to be appropriate compared to the
original word that is used to denote astrology - the words used is "Kala Tantra" and
"Kala vidhana sastra", , meaning "subject that deals with time" or the "science of time".
Now coming to the word Jyotisha the better word used by our ancestors is
"JyothiHsastra", which is a combined name for Astrology, Astronomy and the related
Mathematics. If we divide the word, it would be as follows:
JothiHsastra = Jyotis+Sastra (and NOT jyoti+sastra).
"Jyotis" indicates the light emitting bodies, or the light reflecting bodies as seen from earth.
Thus is indicates both stars and planets. "Sastra" means "Ancient advice" (Sasyate
ithi sastra). There fore in essence "JyotiHsastra" means "Ancient advice about stars and
planets" or if you want to use the word science then say "Science that deals with stars and
planets".
You said: "Jyotisha" mean Jyoti + Isha = light of god.
That meaning is entirely new to me, and never heard any one mentioning such a
meaning. If we consider the word "Jotisha" and if we want to divide it, yes, of course we
can say it is "Joti+Isha". But what is that "Isha"?!! In Sanskrit "Eesa" or "Esana" is god,
god Siva, who is the lord of North-West direction. But what is "Isha"?! How can we say
that it means "God"? If you have any reference, please provide.
If we consider the subject matter of astrology, we will recognize that it deals with
destiny, the rhythm of solar system, and movements of planets and mathematical
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points, though all of which TIME runs as a connecting thread. It is better scientific,
when known as the "subject that deals with time" or the "science of time" rather than
"Ancient advice about stars and planets". The demerit of the
second definition is that in predictive astrology we are not at all dealing with the stars, but
only with Nakshatras (fixed area in sky covering an area of 13 deg 20 min). Still, the
words Kala Tantra, Kala vidhana sastra, Jyotisastra are better than the word
"Jyothisha" - 1 would say.
Vinita:
Quote
"Jyotisha" mean Jyoti + Isha = light of god.
That meaning is entirely new to me, and never heard any one
mentioning such a meaning. If you have any reference, please
provide. Unquote
No dear, I have no reference to provide.. ..Just thought that if anyone wants to KNOW TIME, he should have the LIGHT OF GOD shine on him bright and clear. The demerit of the second definition is that in predictive astrology we are not at all dealing with the stars, but only with Nakshatras (fixed area in sky covering an area of 13 deg 20 min).
Time is always with regard to motions. ...motions with respect to something fixed like the Nakshatras. ...i remember reading somewhere that if there was no movement with reference to something fixed, there would be no time, according to the theory of relativity.
My question is: Do the signs of the zodiac / the nakshatras always cover an area of 30 degrees / 13 deg 20 min, respectively? Or they are unenvenly placed? For instance, some people believe in unequal division of the zodiac.
I came across an interesting link regarding how the 0 point in the zodiac would determine the extent to which there is equal division of the signs (and the nakshatras?). Intuitively, it is difficult to think of how each nakshatra could be placed EXACTLY at a distance of 13 deg 20 min from the other, just as it is difficult to imagine that all the constellations/signs of the zodiac can be contained EXACTLY within 30 degrees.
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Sreenadh:
Quote
"Jyotisha" mean Jyoti + Isha = light of god.
Unquote
I disagree - and is providing my thoughts on the word "Jyotisha".
The ancient names for astrology were Kala Tantra (Science of Time), Kala Vidhana
Sastra (Study of classification of time - i.e. Calendar system), Jyotisastra (Study of light
emitting or light reflecting celestial bodies) etc. This branch of knowledge was also
known as Jyotishmati (An intellect/brain enlightened by the thoughts on cosmic spheres
& light sources) from the period of Atharva Veda. 'Mati' means intelligence and also
denotes an individual with intelligence, brainy person. The first text on astrology, i.e.
Skanda Hora (as per Arsha school) is also known as 'Jyotishmati'. It is said that
Jyotishmati text (Skanda Hora) is the appendix of Atharva Veda (Atharva Khila), and is
an Upanishad. Many slokas from this text is available even today. Only a person with
Jyotishmati (An intellect enlightened by the thoughts on cosmic spheres
& light sources) can predict accurately. May be the word 'Jyotish' is the natural
abbreviation of the ancient word 'Jyotishmati', which denotes astrology, astrological texts,
and the astrologer. The exact meaning of the word 'Jyotish' alone would be
Tight related' and does not seems to depict the exact subject matter of astrology.
Quote
Time is always with regard to motions.... motions with respect to something fixed like
the Nakshatras.... I remember reading somewhere that if there was no movement
with reference to something fixed, there would be no time, according to the theory of
relativity.
Unquote
We should better think according to relativity - as per context. Newton's law of
gravitation is wrong as per Einstein and there is no force called gravitation but only
curvature of space. But this statement does not keep us away from using Newton's laws
of motion when we consider the planetary movements in solar system. Same is the case
with 'Fixed' areas in sky - Nakshatras. As you brought relativity, movements etc into
picture - 1 would just like pose a puzzle.
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A Puzzle
As per Newton, the force or attraction between two bodies is proportional to their
mass and the distance between them. You know it right? I am just twisting the
context-
The force of attraction, one body exerts on another depends on the mass of the other body
and the distance between them! This means that the first body should 'KNOW the mass
of the other body and the distance between them before hand!! And gravitation
depends on that! How an inert body can 'KNOW the existence of the other body - is it
that Newton wants to say that every body has a 'Mind' within?!
Now may be you could see, how things could be misinterpreted, when taken out of
context, or out of the framework where they are supposed to be used. In Science they use
the word 'System' to denote the framework with in which each concept is valid. Same is
true for the concepts used in any holistic subject. Yes, I suggest, dive deep into the
subject and understand the importance of the concept 'System' or 'Frame work' used
both in Scientific and Holistic study methods.
Quote
I came across an interesting link regarding how the 0 point in the zodiac would determine the extent to which there is equal division of the signs (and the nakshatras?). Intuitively, it is difficult to think of how each Nakshatra could be placed EXACTLY at a distance of 13 deg 20 min from the other, just as it is difficult to imagine that all the constellations/signs of the zodiac can be contained EXACTLY within 30 degrees. Unquote
Signs and Nakshatras are mathematical divisions of the ecliptic, and in the current developmental stage of astrology has nothing to do with the imaginary shape of stellar constellations. If you want to know more about the mathematics and concepts behind the fixing of Zero point in the zodiac, and also how the signs and Nakshatras got divided, read the book 'Hindu Zodiac' by Chandrahari.
PS: We may find several questions for which none of us have any answer. But yes, we can enquire, search, ask others, and yes, when we are genuinely interested some answers will pope up from some corners when the time is ripe.
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Vinita:
I don't think we disagree after all. You have quoted from various places and said,
Quote
"Jyotisastra (Study of light emitting or light reflecting celestial bodies) etc. This
branch of knowledge was also known as Jyotishmati (An intellect/brain enlightened by
the thoughts on cosmic spheres & light sources) from the period of Atharva Veda.
'Mati' means intelligence and also denotes an individual with intelligence, brainy
person."
Unquote
I don't find this very different from " if anyone wants to KNOW TIME, he should have
the LIGHT OF GOD shine on him bright and clear." Such a person alone can have
jyotishmati to study jyotisastra, the way it is defined above.
As for two bodies "knowing" Newton's law of attraction, could there not be an
intelligence, a mati, in the so called inanimate objects too. Energy is the other side of
matter and all energy is intelligent.
Sreenadh:
Some say that Jyoti-sastra means 'Science of Light'. Should it be translated to
'Science of light' or as 'Ancient knowledge about Light emitting celestial spheres'?
As we all know -
Sun is the only light emitting object in the solar system - a star. Moon is a satellite that
reflects the light of sun. Planets also reflects the light of sun, but to us the amount of
light thus coming to earth from planets are very less, at times lesser than the brilliancy of
hundreds of stars there in sky. Even though the light from sun and the sun light
reflected by Moon are important for the life in earth, the light reflected by planets do
not have any measurable influence in life on earth. So in such a situation the influence
(?!) of light can not be the base of astrology. Similar is the case with the gravitational
influence of planets on earth and its living beings. So it is plainly clear to the people of
the categories, such as -
1) People who approach this subject scientifically.
2) People who approach this subject holistically.
Or in essence to any person with logic and understanding who tries to study this
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subject systematically, this is the prime truth that sprung up to their mind. That is why
most of the scientific community plainly discards Astrology, since its fundamentals
(House, significance etc) have no correlation with the foundations of science, and the
scientists are taught to think based on proven principles. Therefore they are logically
correct in discarding astrology as an absurd subject (If we try to understand their view
point). They will laugh at the concept of "Light or Gravitation acting of different
persons differently based on their the birth time of the native" ;) See how absurd the
idea is! But in the course of the study, they find some cute influences that really
control the human/animal/plant life (!),such as Biological clock, circadian rhythm
etc!!! Yes, somehow the rhythm influence, destiny and it has a more subtle influence,
than we are aware of till now, the scientists says, and they start studying it further with
real interest! ! They are right, and they know their path! !
Now coming to the second category of people, when they learns and understands the
"concepts" (basic hypothetical constructs) in astrology (such as Sign, House, Planet etc)
and tries to applies it in life, they find that it really works!! Some of them may be just
satisfied by this itself. But some of them, who really want to
understand how and why it happens, ponder further, and the only answer they could
find is the rhythmical co-relation of existence between the animal/plant/anything in
earth with the rhythm of the universe or at least solar system. When they look at the
invaluable literature provided to us by our ancestors, they wonder(!!), even the
Rishis/Yogis who looked into the rhythm within them, those who knew the rhythm of
their breath Patten completely, they had already stated the same!! Yes, what the
scientists tries to study today (Subtle
influence of the external rhythm in living beings), was well known to the
Rishis/Yogis!! Believe in the Rishi vakyas!! The traditional path of Astrology or
Yoga!! They knew how much the rhythm is important and how it controlled the
destiny! !
The scientists looks outside - objective to subjective. The Yogi does the opposite. He
looks inside - subjective to objective. The first is the path of analytical thinking and
the second of holistic thinking.
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See how beautifully now the 2 paths are going to merge - at least "in the study of the
influence of the rhythm of the external universe on living beings"!! To different paths
merging in the same point! !
We don't have to look anywhere else, or look for the wrong idea of "light controlling
the destiny", the path is already 3/4 covered by all - (scientific or holistic thinkers) -
both coming through different ways!
The scientists are studying biological clock and circadian rhythm in detail. The
astrologers (by taking the help of programmers, and diving into the true essence of
ancient statements) are trying to co-relate their knowledge with it. (Let it be JHora,
AstroDataBank, or the many other researches). But frankly speaking the scientists are
better ahead of us (astrologers) in bridging this gap!! Look at the vast amount of
research that is already done about biological clock, circadian rhythm etc!!
Time the 4th dimension is an essential part of that rhythm, and it is the space-time
continuum (Siva the Mahakala) is the one who is dancing in the cosmic rays!!
Why cosmic rays?! Because in science, you won't get a better example to represent
the dance of energy, the eternal rhythm, Nataraja Nritham!!
Thus in essence I am totally against, any attempt to argue that "Astrology is based on
light or gravity", or statements such as "Light or gravitation can influence the destiny" or
the like. I find it not only unscientific, but also as an argument against the
fundamentals of astrology. Neither Scientific nor Holistic approach supports such
views.
SouvikDatta:
I completely agree with you. I personally belong to the category two people (the
holistic group). Truth and facts are very important to me. If anything caters to it, I
would call it science.
5. Symbolism in Astrology
[Participants: Vinita, Sreenadh OG] Vinita:
For a long long time I was curious about the symbolism in astrology. (It all started with
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the symbol for Pisces which has been used by many to denote several things - the yin, yan,
the upward and the downward journey, the duality which balances out, etc., etc.).
I was very excited to read your message on the division of the signs as Quadruped,
biped, reptilian and water. Are not these the stages of evolution in life? Life beginning in
water with the reptiles graduating to the quadrupeds and then the bipeds?
I am also curious about the significance of the rising of signs - some rising with the back,
some with the front and so on.... What does this signify?
Once again let me express my sincere gratitude to your initiative to open up. ...I was
going to say Pandora's box. ...but that has negative connotations, doesn't it?. ...It is our
basic curiosity that gets us to open up these boxes, in any case. ...and when we do this we
are never satisfied as we hunger for more and more.
Puranic tales and their linkages with astrology is another topic of interest but that we
can discuss another time. Sreeram Srinivas: Quote
I was very excited to read your message on the division of the signs as Quadruped, biped, reptilian and water. Are not these the stages of evolution in life? Unquote
In Hinduism symbolism being used extensively. The more you delve into it, the more it reveals. I have paradox answer to the query of Ms Vinita. Can you recall the different Nine Avatars of the Lord Vishnu & put them in proper sequence (with translated meaning of that avatar). Then correlate it with the so called popular theory of Darwin - Theory of Evolution. Do you find any sequence logics in this? Did Darwin get "inspiration" from Hindu scriptures? (Like our Bollywood copying freely from Hollywood!)
Second exercise - Identify the people around you whose birth lagna is "quadruped" i.e. Aries, Leo, Sagittarius - watch their normal walking "pace" categorize it either slow / normal / fast. Similarly for Taurus, Scorpion, Cancer, Pisces, Capricorn. Finally, Gemini, Virgo, Libra, Aquarius. Assuming that all these zodiac people if they were to walk in a group - after a while, you will find three distinct groups - fast / normal / slow. Then identify the zodiac relevant people in each category and analyze the results yourself.
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Do you see any interesting? I am sure you will surely find it.
Third, if you are able to identify the answer to Second exercise (and practice it
appropriately ), you will be enthused to know, that you will in position to "predict" the
lagna of a person even in a group and "KNOCK him /her DOWN" without asking his birth
data!!!
Sreenadh:
Quote
I was very excited to read your message on the division of the signs as Quadruped, biped, reptilian and water. Are not these the stages of evolution in life?
Unquote
Some body argues like that as well. But the prime question is we consider it as stages of
evolution or anything like that, then, we should answer the questions -
1) Can we show any previous instances of acharyas using it in that way?
2) What is the use of such a consideration in astrological prediction?
Because if the symbolism is with out predictive purpose, then it is of not much importance in astrology. Why? Because - "Jyotisha Phalamadesa, Phalarthamarambhanam bhavati loke" (Astrology is for prediction, all efforts are just to streamline prediction) Quote
I am also curious about the significance of the rising of signs - some rising with the back,
some with the front and so on.... What does this signify? Unquote
I think you are mentioning the Seershodaya (rising with the head) and Prishtodaya (rising with the back/bottom)and Uphayodaya (Rising with head/bottom together) Signs.
The concept behind it seems to be simple. In the month of Mesha (Aries - April 14th to May 14th), Aries rises first (after sun rise), then Pisces, then Aquarius and so on. If
we consider the sign Pisces, the 360 deg rises first and then 359 deg, since the zodiac
seems to rotate from east-to-west due to the west-to-east revolution of earth.
Now we know that symbolic shapes are ascribed to the constellations in each sign.
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51 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
During the revolution of the zodiac around earth, if the head of that symbol appears in the
eastern horizon first, then it is called a Seershodaya sign (rising with head), and if the
legs/tail/bottom appears first then it is called Prishtodaya sign (rising with
back/bottom) and if the head and tail appear together then it is called Uphayodaya sign
(rising with head/tail together). That is why it is considered that-
Gemini, Leo, Virgo, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Aquarius - Seershodaya signs
Aries, Taurus, Cancer, Capricorn - Prishtodaya signs
Pisces - Uphayodaya sign.
I think it is clear. If somebody has any novel clarifying idea on this regard, it is
welcome.
Quote
It is our basic curiosity that gets us to open up these boxes, in any case. ...and when we
do this we are never satisfied as we hunger for more and more.
Unquote
It should be like that only! Curiosity and inquisitiveness is the mothers of all
inventions.
Quote
Puranic tales and their linkages with astrology is another topic of interest but that we
can discuss another time. Unquote
Right you said! Especially when it is very difficult to distinguish the worthy and unworthy and statements of people about the symbolism in Puranic literature.
Vinita:
What I want to know is what is the significance of this for Kala Tantra?
Sreenadh:
The first answer that came to my mind is a statement without politeness - "Read Krishneeyam and Dasadhyayi. It is there in it. Am I supposed to teach all this?!" But then again looking at that question, I felt "No, I shouldn't speak like that. There is something more god wants to teach me, even with this simple question". And I thought more about the Seershodaya divisions and the result is given below. Dear Vinita ji, thanks for probing and bringing out this result.
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Divisions Such as Seershodaya
There seems to be a controversy related to the division of zodiac signs into
Seershodaya, Prishtodaya and Ubhayodaya. In Varaha Hora it is stated that,
Aries, Taurus, Cancer, Sagittarius, Capricorn - Prishtodaya signs
Gemini, Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Aquarius - Seershodaya signs
Pisces - Ubhayodaya sign
What is the logic behind?
During the revolution of the zodiac around earth, if the head of that symbol appears in the
eastern horizon first, then it is called a Seershodaya sign (rising with head), and if the
legs/tail/bottom appears first then it is called Prishtodaya sign (rising with
back/bottom) and if the head and tail appear together then it is
called Uphayodaya sign (rising with head/tail together).
But this answer is not complete, since Seershodaya means, "rise with the head".
When? While birth!
This means only human signs can be Seershodaya signs, and all the other signs should be
Prishtodaya signs except Pisces, which is an Ubhayodaya sign! Let us verify the
divisions of signs into Seershodaya etc as per this second logic. But there seems to be
exceptions. Let us verify them.
1) As we could see Sagittarius is partly human sign, but still it is considered Prishtodaya. Why? Because the second half of the Sagittarius sign rises first on the eastern horizon and that part is a Quadruped. Therefore it is OK to term Sagittarius as Prishtodaya.
2) Scorpio is a Reptile sign, and so it should be Prishtodaya. But Mihira says that it is Seershodaya sign! But if we refer the ancient texts, Skanda Hora and in Parasara Hora considers Scorpio as Prishtodaya! So even though the head of the symbol Scorpio rises first in the eastern horizon, since it is a reptile sign (and not a human sign), I would like to follow the opinion of Skanda and Parasara, and support the view that it is a Prishtodaya sign.
3) Leo is a Quadruped sign, so it should be Prishtodaya as per the second logic. But Mihira says that Leo is a Seershodaya sign! Skanda Hora Keeps quiet on this issue(What was his opinion?), but Parasara boldly states that it is a Seershodaya sign! I
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53 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
would have to drop the second logic at least for Leo, since I don't have any authority to reject the opinion of the great sage Parasara. So let us agree to the view that Leo is Seershodaya.
4) There is no controversy on the fact that Pisces is an Ubhayodaya sign. But I am satisfied. :) Why? Because there seems to be clear cut logic working behind the classification of signs into Seershodaya, Prishtodaya and Ubhayodaya. What is the significance of this for Astrology? The astrological prediction system is 7- fold. i.e. Sign, House, Planet, Sign-House, Sign-Planet, House-Planet, Sign-House- Planet prediction systems forms the base of it. For sign based predictions assigning various characteristics to the sign which is the base module fore prediction is a must. And that is why the Symbolic shapes, Male-Female classification, Chara-Stira-Ubhaya classification, Krita-Dwapara-Treta-Kali Yuga classification, Earth-Water-Fire-Air- Sky classification etc is assigned to the signs.
Similar is the case with Seershodaya-Prishtodaya-Ubhayodaya classification. These classifications teach us how to predict with a sign, especially when no planet is posited in it. For example, Krishneeyam says:
If the Lagna is Seershodaya sign predict beneficial results, if it is Prishtodaya then predict malefic results, if it is Ubhayodaya predict a mixture of the two- Especially when no planet is placed in it.
A person born in Seershodaya sign would be fast learning, with good short memory. A person born in Prishtodaya sign would be slow learning, but with good long-term memory. Ubhayodaya - mix of the two.
A planet placed in Seershodaya sign with give beneficial results at the beginning of the Dasa, while a planet placed in Prishtodaya sign will give beneficial results at the end of the Dasa. A planet placed in Ubhayodaya sign will give beneficial results at the middle of the Dasa.
A benefic planet placed in Seershodaya sign will give better results, while a malefic planet placed in Prishtodaya sign will give worse results.
In Prasna if the question is similar to "My expectations will come true or not?" then, if Lagna is Seershodaya sign then beneficial result follows, and if the Lagna is Prishtodaya sign then the expectations will not fructify. In a Prasna related to Disease, if
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54 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
the Lagna happens to be a Seershodaya sign then the major stage of the disease is over,
and now it is going to cure gradually. All these are important especially when there is
no planet present in Lagna. Planet placed in Lagna modifies the results indicated
by the sign. Like this the Seershodaya-Prishtodaya-Ubhayodaya classification
can be useful in many instances. If you want to know more read, Krishneeyam,
Dashadhyayi, Shadpanchasika or the like. This classification is part of the Sign based
prediction system.
Dear vinita ji, I have noticed the conflicting opinions of saints on this Seershodya-
Prishtodaya-Ubhayodya classification only when you probed, and requested for more
info on the same. Thanks for that - and pardon the harsh primary thoughts that came to
my mind.
Ohm. . . Sahanavavatu. . . Sahanou bhunaktu. . . .
Sahaveeryam karavavahai. . .Ma. . . vidishavahai. . . .
Ohm....Santi...Santi...Santi
Vinita:
Om sahana vavatu sahana bhunattu saha viryam karawavahai
tejasvinavaditamastu ma vidvishavahai om shanti shanti shanti om
I don't know how to thank u for giving such a satisfactory explanation. I feel guilty that I made u do all the work of explaining meanings to me. U did not just hand it over on a platter but even provided a spoon for the feeding. I am very very grateful to u. May Jupiter shine and shine on us. Asatoma Sadhgamayah Tamasoma Jyotirgamyah Mrityoma Amritamgamayah OM Shanti Shanti Shanti
6. Symbolism Everywhere
[Participants: Vinita, Nalini, Souvik Datta, Sreenadh OG] This is an astrological discussion based on Stairway to Heaven by Led Zeppelin.
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55 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
Vinita:
Maybe there is symbolism everywhere. Like in the following song which is absolutely
lovely
[Editor: Vinita ji quotes from - the lyrics to Stairway to Heaven by Led Zeppelin, which was used to much mirth in the Wayne's World Movie. Led Zeppelin were an English rock band formed in 1968 by Jimmy Page (guitar), Robert Plant (vocals), John Paul Jones (bass guitar, keyboards) and John Bonham (drums). With their heavy, guitar-driven sound, Led Zeppelin are regarded as one of the first heavy metal bands. However, the band's individualistic style draws from many sources and transcends any one genre.
URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Led Zeppelinl
STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN
There's a lady who's sure
All that glitters is gold
And she's buying a stairway to heaven.
When she gets there she knows
If the stores are all closed
With a word she can get what she came for.
Ooh, ooh, and she's buying a stairway to heaven.
There's a sign on the wall
But she wants to be sure
'cause you know sometimes words have two meanings. In
a tree by the brook
There's a songbird who sings,
Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it makes me wonder.
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There's a feeling I get
When I look to the west,
And my spirit is crying for leaving. In
my thoughts I have seen
Rings of smoke through the trees,
And the voices of those who standing looking.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it really makes me wonder.
And it's whispered that soon
If we all call the tune
Then the piper will lead us to reason.
And a new day will dawn
For those who stand long
And the forests will echo with laughter.
If there's a bustle in your hedgerow
Don't be alarmed now,
It's just a spring clean for the may queen.
Yes, there are two paths you can go by But
in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on.
And it makes me wonder.
Your head is humming and it won't go
In case you don't know,
The piper's calling you to join him, Dear
lady, can you hear the wind blow, And
did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind.
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57 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul.
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How ev'rything still turns to gold.
And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last.
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.
And she's buying a stairway to heaven.
Nalini:
I can only say "WOW" Vinita:
Nalini, I am glad you liked the lyrics. The song is hauntingly beautiful. The tune keeps
humming in the head and refuses go away.
Souvik, did you know that according to Mayan myth a rope / snake / stairway will
descend from heaven in 2012? Souvik Datta:
Wow no I actually didn't know that till now. After your mail I researched and found this:
http://www.hiddenmvsteries.org/author/henry/2012stargate.shtml
Quite interesting I must confess... Thanks for sharing... [Editor: This branch ended there itself and did not became a detailed discussion of 2012 end date provided by ancient Maya civilization, as could have been expected. But another branch from the same thread continued revealing some philosophical content and understanding] Sreenadh:
It is beautiful!! But I think - "we should build the stair way the heaven we know" rather
than "buying the stairway to heaven". Thanks for giving us that very good song. Yes, I too
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58 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
think that it is symbolic and there is hidden meaning inside. I join hands with Nalini to
say "WOW" Vinita:
I agree with you 100 per cent! We should BUILD our stairway.... (Can't think of how one
could be "buying" a stairway to heaven.... though I thought I could understand a little bit
why "all that glitters is gold"). Sreenadh:
That is interesting.
Quote
I thought I could understand a little bit why "all that glitters is gold"
Unquote
I don't think 'all that glitters is gold'. But for sure, if some thing is gold, even if it does not
glitter, it is valuable for sure. Let us chip away the impurities, and refine the
knowledge of astrology as Mihira states in the opening verse of Brihat samhita, "Like
melted gold" let our knowledge become pure, refined, and let us be bold in upholding the
truth we find. If not worthy let it evaporate into thin air - and we are happy. :) Let us
joyously enjoy the exercise.
"We should build the stair way to the heaven we know "
Two things are pre -requisites here.
1) We should know how to build the stairway.
For this we first need to collect the raw material. As for as astrology is concerned our stair way is a logical one, and the raw material is the knowledge inputs and thoughts by the ancient Rishis. In short the whole available knowledge about astrology.
2) We should know the heaven before hand!
This means that, instead of believing or disbelieving in a subject, naturally the TRUST should develop. We never believe in Sun, but we TRUST because we know that it is a reality. Yes, but this comes from experience and daily interaction. If we have seen somebody using the tool of astrology is a very effective manner producing astonishing results, or if we ourselves were able to do that then only that trust originates/forms. (For people in Kerala, I think still that chance remains, I think. Anybody who has seen a good Deva Prasna in Temples of Kerala where 3 to 10 astrologers interact each other discussing
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the various aspects of astrology will agree to this I hope)
But yes, there are big gaps in between - Between the accepted knowledge of science and
the system of astrology. Plus, the astrological system itself is now in a corrupted state. So
what we should try to do is to bridge this gap using the logical
stairway we build using the raw materials collected form the ancient classics. Yes, since
we have to bridge it to the knowledge today, we would have to have the systematic
idea of the current knowledge as well. I hope you would agree.
Let us join hands in this search, in this effort, in this sincere research for reestablishing the
value of an ancient thought system, the holistic approach - and its child, astrology. It is not
everything and perfect in all ways - but, yes, for sure there is something worthy. And
even if it is a lone piece of real gold, among thousand junk superstitions, (things that
glitters), let us give it its true credit, to enjoy the impartial happiness.
Vinita:
I simply loved that! For me too all that glitters (has the light of God reflected on it) is gold and is worth pursuing. The stairway we can build, or buy, that is not material non material?
Nalini:
Meta physical and spiritual I would say! As long as the stairway is strong fundamentally, it would serve the purpose it is built for with *investing* our all into it, like sreenadh ji said, else it would crumble ignomiously (in a dishonorably manner or to a dishonorable degree).
[Editor: The thread ended there. It was a knowledge sharing session - spiritual and
philosophical. But in astrological perspective this thread has shared only a little, I would say.
The possibilities related to exploring the 2012 Mayan end date remained unexplored and left
out for some time, even though in some other thread someone else took up it later and
discussed in detail]
7. Interesting observation
[Hari, Sreenadh OG, Souvik Datta, Pandit Arjun] Hah (Jyotisa Shisya):
Nowadays, in the early morning, I go outside and sit on the porch to enjoy the cool
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morning air. Today I was a little later than usual and wondering if I had missed the milkman's knock. A crow came up and perched on the parapet wall near to where I was sitting. Into my mind came the following questions in ^sequence*
(1) Will the milkman come to deliver the milk? Crows response: three caws
(2) Will I get the expected speed post today? Crows response: two caws
The crow then flew away.
Actual situation: The milkman came and the speed post didn't arrive as of now. Is it
a coincidence that YES has three letters while NO has two letters?
Who is more intuitive? The crow or the fellow sitting on the porch?
Jyotish lesson: Make it a habit to observe acutely what is happening around you and try
to decipher the meaning of what you observe relative to the situation. The art of
deciphering nimittas or sakuna sastra is an invaluable tool for the Jyotisha. Sreenadh:
It is the description of just an incident but the story seems to hide a lot of meaning - and
is really good!!
PS: Read it in the light of discussions on the chart of Pramod Mahajan and about the
validity of astrology, then only the true beauty of the story will be revealed. The
Promod Mahajan incident itself seems to be one of the nimittas we (the astrologers)
should observe. [Editor: On 22 April 2006, Pramod Mahajan was shot at and fatally injured by his brother Pravin Mahajan over a family dispute. He succumbed to his wounds 13 days later. After the news about Pramod Mahajen being shot was out, numerous famous and infamous astrologers started predicting about whether he will live or die - taking advantage of the 50-50 situation. Many famous astrologers like Sanjay Rath, pathetically failed in those chance predictions, while some like KN Rao, Madhu Nair etc predicted the outcome fairly correctly. (The number of astrologers who might try to take advantage of even such tragic situations are many in number. But such incidents also help us to identify the usefulness of the mind made astrological theories in practical situations). The above narration by Jyotish Shisya was probably describing the above situation in a humorous way]
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Pandit Arjun:
Even though these sakuna sastras are interesting, I did not read or learn them as I did not find any classics on them. If you could refer any classics mentioning these sakuna sastra or any old books on how to read from animal hints, I would like to learn them also. If predictions can be made on the caws of a crow and barks of a dog and the fall of a lizard, it is really an easy task for an astrologer.
Sreenadh:
It not due to the reference to sakuna sastras that I presented that mail, but due to the hidden double meaning and anomaly. Becoming serious, now coming to the subject of 'Sakuna' and 'Nimitta' (If you are one a travel the Nimittas that you observe in the start of the journey - with approx 100 m - is termed Sakuna and all omens are generally termed 'Nimitta'), it is a subject dealt with in Samhitas. So the available ancient classics that deal with this subject would be samhita texts like - Brihat samhita, Harita samhita, Samasa samhita, Maha yatra etc. Prasna texts like Prasnamaraga, Prasnanushtana padhati etc also refer to various omens related to Prasna in an elaborate manner. Texts like Kerala prasna samgraha, Prasna Koutuka gives omens to be observed related to touching of body parts by the qurent. In texts like Siva sworodaya and Agni purana omens judged from breath pattern are mentioned. Even Ayurvedic classic texts like Ashtanga Hridaya also discusses omens that would help the doctor to judge the disease, situation and the possible outcome of the treatment. This system is very old as is evident from
the statement of 'Vishnugupta' (chanakya) in Chanakya sutra: "Upastita vinasa prakrityakarena karyena drisyate" Meaning, the future possibility of destruction or bad out comes would be indicated by the natural omens. E.g.: Before rain we see the clouds - it is an omen Before earth quake the animals react - it is an omen The classification of omens which depends on various basic principles itself is a big subject to deal with. By the way we value the statement of Vishnugupta (chanakya) because he is the reputed author of a reputed astrological classic called "Vishnugupta Hora'. You said: Quote
If you could refer any classics mentioning these shakuna shastra or any old books on how to read from animal hints, i would like to learn them also.
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Unquote
If want to be systematic and authentic, to understand the animal behavior, it is better to read modern texts on the subject and depend on direct observation and study of animals and nature. Mihira in Mahayatra (also known as Brihat Yogayatra) asks us to study the animal behavior and nature from direct observation. Yes, I here you ask, where is astrology in it. The astrologer is supposed to predict and for that he is collecting all the tools he could, whetherthat is related to planets and Rasi Chakra or not. This is specially important in Ashtamangala Prasna etc. For them the concept while considering animal behavior etc was, "it is important are you able to predict future events accurately and how you do it is not important"! But remember, this concept is JUST PART of the big Nimitta system and not a rule that depict the WHOLE Nimitta system. I hope the above references will be sufficient to give you a start on the subject, of omens. Quote
If predictions can be made on the caws of a crow and barks of a dog and the fall of a
lizard, it is really an easy task for an astrologer. Unquote
No it is wrong. Wisely and efficiently using and understanding this system is one of the hardest tasks! I have heard a story related to observation of a Nimitta by an Ayurvedic doctor. He visited one of the patients with his Sishya and having digestion problems. He observed the smell and presence of Jackfruit near to the bed of the patient, and from that omen observed that eating of too much jackfruit was the cause of indigestion. Another day the in the absence of the guru the Sishya had to visit a patient with the same problem. He was unable to locate the problem by diagnosis, so he looked around for omens, and found some grass near to the bed of patient. So he immediately asked "Did you ate grass yesterday?". Same is story of and the study of the system of "Omen observation". It is in a better damaged state similar to the Jataka stream of astrology at present. We could find knowledge related to Nature, climate, body language, breath pattern, astrological knowledge of zodiac and planets, animal behavior, biology, psychology, hundreds of beliefs, many superstitions all getting used WITH THE AIM OF PREDICTING THE FUTURE in this branch astrology. It is the ancient mother of several streams of knowledge. We should have to look at the subject of omens in a new light. May
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the grace of nature be with us, with that grace let us be with it, to understand the world around us in a better way, so that everything will reflect in us, and give us clues about the future possibilities which helps us in prediction. PS:
- The astrologer is like a mirror who reflects the nature and the qurent himself.
- He is a person who see - which others can not see (Even in day to day life)
•-He is a person who hear - which others can not hear (Even in day to day life) Meaning he observes with attention and understands much more from what others too see and hear. He is the wise man who is there to say what he saw and heard to others, but in a different mould, so that it would be beneficial to them.
SouvikDatta:
This reminds me of the string theory on quantum physics... Sreenadhji, do you exist in parallel universes? J
Sreenadh:
Lol yes! In a parallel universe called Kerala (with an indecipherable and
cumbersome language 'Malalayalam'), where an astrologer started speaking English recently only. But the wonder is that, these people of the south India, have started copying old Sanskrit texts into their regional scripts, before hundreds of years, and those texts become extinct in North India but still many references and slokas are still available in these regional scripts!
They felt it difficult to write Sanskrit and have created 2 scripts - popularly known as 'Grandha lipi' or 'Grandha script'. Grandha lipi means a script that was created to write Sanskrit in a script that resembles regional scripts (with less alphabets)of Kerala and Tamilnadu. These scripts are -
1) Tamil Grandha lipi (Now only available in preserved texts in manuscript libraries) [Tamil is the language of the state 'Tamilnadu']
2) Malayalam Grandha lipi (This later become the slandered script of Malayalam) [Malayalam is the language of the state 'Kerala']
Malayalam Grandha lipi become Malayalam and maybe because of that many ancient Sanskrit slokas and sloka references are available in this language and texts. The astrological knowledge in this language is already explored although the fruits are not yet
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completely presented to the world. But the Tamil Grandha lipi is an unexplored treasure!
Many spend years to translate Sanskrit texts to Tamil Grandha lipi and as you may know
Tamil is an older and ancient language than Malayalam. Now nobody reads and uses
'Tamil Grandha lipi', but the manuscripts libraries (all over India) have thousands of
'Grandha lipi' texts preserved with them! Who knows, we many find many, 'thought to
be lost texts' in this collection. It is another treasure for we children to play with - caused
by language development and its history. I think, even though I am able to notice this
regarding Malayalam and Tamil, there is a possibility that this is the same situation with
all the other regional scripts as well. Somebody should conduct a search for 'Sanskrit
astrological classics in regional scripts'. Then from Southern states and from states like
Kashmir, Orisa etc new knowledge and lost texts may spring and rise to their feet,
becoming visible to all.
[Editor: The thread died there, possibly because Souvik datta or any one else didn't knew
much about such lost languages and civilizations especially connected to South India. The
areas this thread pointed-to but left unexplored re -
- Analyzing instant coffee like new born theories getting tested in practical contexts
- More about the theoretical foundations of Sakuna or Nimitta Sastra
- Exploring the subject of ancient scripts and languages further]
8. Death Desire and Death
[Vinita, Sreenadh OG] Vinita:
I have an acquaintance / friend who visits me sometimes. About a month back he told me that his father was unwell and had a strong desire to die. His father too was an astrologer. He predicted for himself that he will not survive beyond 3rd May this year. Third May also happened to be my friend's birthday. Yesterday he dropped by and told me that his father expired on the 4th May in "subha" hours.
The person had a strong desire to die because he was suffering. But to have timed his own death so accurately was amazing. He was undergoing his third cycle of Sade Saathi. I couldn't get his birth details in the given circumstances, but maybe i will do so later for this forum.
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Another amazing thing, I was told that happened was that this person's sister-in-law who had been living in the same house for many years, since she became a widow when young, passed away the following day. There was once again a strong iccha at work here. Why I am writing this is to know from esteemed astrologers on this forum about the role of iccha in our charts to shape events in our life.
My guru has been saying that THIS MOMENT is inevitable but the NEXT MOMENT is full of a million possibilities. The RESPONSE TO THIS MOMENT is in our hands. ...I suppose it is how we act. ..our karma.
But the next moment is something so uncertain. ...something like the motions of sub- atomic particles.... that can it be influenced by consciousness / iccha? I would like to hear the opinion of esteemed members. Sreenadh:
You are absolutely right! Iccha (Desire) is also playing a strong role in making predictions true. If we accept that hypnotism works, if we know that we have a strong will which can change things (even destiny - Rishis supports this argument) then why not can we ignore the role of iccha (Strong Desire/Will)? But I would like to add that Iccha is not lone player that makes the predictions true, it is one of the factors I should accept. In olden days when snake bitten people (or their relatives) visit, the Ayurveda doctor, since they strongly want to tell the event, knowing or unknowingly they may touch the portion of the body where the snake bite. This is a psychological factor. The doctor knows about this, psycho factor and makes use of it, at times by predicting the body part where the snake -bite, 'before' the patient tells about it. Why? This makes the patient amazed at the capability of the doctor and there after the words of the doctor works magic! If the doctor says that it is a minor case and for sure the patient will survive then, the iccha (desire/will) of the patient is aroused, and at times he survives against all odds! Yes, of course, it is one of the factors only in such situations. But, yes, it is one of the factors for sure, in any prediction, provided the qurent (or the person who should undergo the result of that prediction) is aware of this prediction. This is just one part of the answer to your thoughts. The other question is Iccha (Strong Desire/Consciousness/Will) can modify the physical environment, or future (of people or circumstances) which is not directly connected to the person who is willing or imagining. Or in other words, whether
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the consciousness of a person can change the circumstances that are NOT directly or indirectly connected to him? That is purely another question, and even though even "Bhagavat Gita" and all Indian system of thoughts supports it, I am no body to comment on the subject, or to compare it with the view of science, which is another uncertain field while dealing with such matters. No body has an answer to it in the scientific world, and how can we boast to have one with ourselves.
Why I am writing this is to know from esteemed astrologers on this forum about the role of iccha in our charts to shape events in our life.
My guru has been saying that THIS MOMENT is inevitable but the NEXT MOMENT is full of a million possibilities. The RESPONSE TO THIS MOMENT is in our hands. ...I suppose it is how we act. ..our karma.
But the next moment is something so uncertain. ...something like the motions of sub- atomic particles.... that can it be influenced by consciousness / iccha? I would like to hear the opinion of esteemed members. Sreenadh:
You are absolutely right! Iccha (Desire) is also playing a strong role in making predictions true. If we accept that hypnotism works, if we know that we have a strong will which can change things (even destiny - Rishis supports this argument) then why not can we ignore the role of iccha (Strong Desire/Will)? But I would like to add that Iccha is not lone player that makes the predictions true, it is one of the factors I should accept. In olden days when snake bitten people (or their relatives) visit, the Ayurveda doctor, since they strongly want to tell the event, knowing or unknowingly they may touch the portion of the body where the snake bite. This is a psychological factor. The doctor knows about this, psycho factor and makes use of it, at times by predicting the body part where the snake-bite, 'before' the patient tells about it. Why? This makes the patient amazed at the capability of the doctor and there after the words of the doctor works magic! If the doctor says that it is a minor case and for sure the patient will survive then, the iccha (desire/will) of the patient is aroused, and at times he survives against all odds! Yes, of course, it is one of the factors only in such situations. But, yes, it is one of the factors for sure, in any prediction, provided the qurent (or the person who should undergo the result of that prediction) is aware of this prediction. This is just
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one part of the answer to your thoughts. The other question is Iccha (Strong
Desire/Consciousness/Will) can modify the physical environment, or future (of people or
circumstances) which is not directly connected to the person who is willing or
imagining. Or in other words, whether the consciousness of a person can change the
circumstances that are NOT directly or indirectly connected to him? That is purely another
question, and even though even "Bhagavat Gita" and all Indian system of thoughts
supports it, I am no body to comment on the subject, or to compare it with the view of
science, which is another uncertain field while dealing with such matters. No body has an
answer to it in the scientific world, and how can we boast to have one with ourselves.
9. Graha Drishti - What is the Logic behind Special
Drishti?
[Pandit Arjun, Sreenadh OG, Bharat, Vijayadas Pradeep, Panditji] [Editor: This discussion happened as a branching thread of the discussion on 'Drishti'.] Pandit Arjun:
Speaking logically and rationally all planets having aspect on the 7th from its house is understood. However, do the special aspects of 4,8 for mars and 3,10 for Saturn and 5,9 for Jupiter have any logic behind them? If so, why Venus, Mercury, Sun and Moon do not have these special aspects. The original classics mention "what" special aspects the planets have and not "why". If I could not understand the "why" portion from the original classics, could you please explain as to why Mars, Saturn and Jupiter have these special aspects and why not the other planets have these special aspects. Personally I do not believe in rashis having drishti as these rashis are only mythical in nature and the reality are only planets and stars, so only planets can have aspects and not rashis. Sreenadh: Quote
Do the special aspects of 4,8 for mars and 3,10 for Saturn and 5,9 for Jupiter have any logic behind them. If so, why Venus, Mercury, Sun and moon do not have these special aspects. Unquote I don't know. May be the rational for this is present in lost part of the Rishi horas. The only
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thing I know is that all the different schools of astrological thought such as Arsha School,
Jain school, Yavana School support the concept of special drishti. I will supply the
available quotes below:
Triteeye dasame souriH jeevastad trikonage Chaturasram
dharasoonuH kalatre nikhila grahaH Poornam pasyanti
sarvatra prayaschanti phalam tatha
(Surya hora)
This is a text of the Arsha school. Although similar sloka is not available from the other
slokas we can see that Skanda Hora, Brihal prajapatya, Vasishta hora, Kousika hora and
Sounaka hora also supports the concept of "Special Drishti" (Ma to 4th and
8th, Ju to 5th and 9th, Sa to 3rd and 10th) These are all texts of the Arsha school. Now
considering the Jain school of thought -
Duschitkagan souristrikonastan brihaspatiH
Chaturthashtamagan bhoumaH seshaH saptama samstitan
Bhavanti veekshane nityam uktadhika phala grahaH (Gargi
hora)
This is a text of Jain school of thought. Including Garga and Rishiputra all the Rishis of
this school as well support the concept of special drishti as evident from the above sloka.
Now coming to Yavana school of thought -
Phalam visesham pravadamyathato
Bhoumasay poornam chaturasrabhe syat
Phalam cha jeevasya tatha trikonam
Poornam saneH syad dasame triteeye
(Yevaneswara Hora)
The scholars like Yevanacharya, Meenaraja, Sphujidhwaja etc of this stream of
thought also fully support the concept of special drishti.
Being the students of ancient Indian astrological system, we are trying to understand this
ancient system without violating the basic rules put forward by them. Therefore even
though we don't know the exact logic behind the concept of special drishti we have to
accept it. Yes, of course we can continue our search for the logic behind this concept.
When the time and effort is ripe the truth will be revealed to us. Except Sphujidhwaja
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Hora and Meenaraja Hora all the texts mentioned above are lost and only some slokas are available. The available slokas does not discuss the logic behind this concept, so we presume that it would be there in the lost part of these texts. But yes, the concept of special drishti for Ma, Ju and Sa is one of the age old, fundamental concept in astrology. PS: I forgot to add, all those slokas mean, "All planets have drishti towards the 7th house from the house it is placed. Sa has special drishti towards 3rd and 10th house. Ju has special drishti towards 5th and 9th house. Ma has special drishti towards 4th and 8th house"
Pandit Arjun:
The Sanskrit Samhitas read by me also mention the "what" special aspects "what"
planets have. And gurus and students alike have been following them for thousands of
years. Till date I did not get the answer to "why" these special aspects for three
planets? "Why" the other planets do not have special aspects?
There must be some reasoning or rationale written in some texts for sure which my
gurus have not read and explained me. Unfortunately I referred several classics which all
mention the "What" but none mention "why". Even if no classical reference could be
obtained, any logical reasoning convincing enough is welcome. Several modern astro
gurus have written thousands of books and if any book is available on reasoning
for the special aspects, kindly advise the same so that I will buy and understand the
reasons.
Sreenadh:
You are exactly right. Quote
Till date I did not get the answer to "why" these special aspects for three planets? "why" the other planets do not have special aspects? Unquote
Me too is searching for the answer to that question. But the fact remains that even when we find some logically correct answer [that ofcourse we can find] that may not be the true one!!! I will try to provide (inventions!!) some possible EXPLANATIONS later (let me think about it), but be sure to remember that they may not be the true ones.
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Bharat:
These are interesting questions and I am sure everyone is asking them. There is some idea
about this in my mind but I still need to crystallize these thoughts into firm concepts. I
thought I'd just share these with you and may be something concrete can be found out:
Special Drishti is of 3 grahas, namely Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. All 3 are outer grahas. Not
only are they outer grahas in the context of orbit of Earth but represents the interaction
with the society. Jupiter may have a drishti of 5 and 9 as it is connected with protection
of Dharma and acquisition of Knowledge. Mars may have a drishti of
4 and 8 as it connected with karmas to satisfy passions, ambition and the other desires of
the mind. Saturn is connected with performance of one's duties and has a drishti of
3 and 10. 3rd drishti for courage and entrepreneurship and 10th drishti for purposeful
action.
These are just my thoughts and subject to change. Hoping something meaningful can
come out of this discussion.
Vijayadas Pradeep:
Yes these points are important. I feel in the past too I have come across some explanations (astrological reason) regarding special aspects. May be we will get some classical support at a later period. Astrological reason makes planets to have special dispositions (astronomical) and I have tried to attempt the said angle.
Panditji:
Mars is karaka (significator) for land property so the 4th, and being a warrior is always in danger of death, hence 8th. No idea though why Mercury /Sun or Moon does not have any special aspects.
Sreenadh:
Genuine reply of the truly learned! :) Thank you. I was thinking in the same lines. Sa is karaka for 10th, Ju for 9th etc. So the Drishti may have something to do with (fixed) Bhava karakatwa assigned to planets as well. But yes, it could be one of the reasons.
Vijayadas Pradeep:
Dear Panditji, Thanks for your valuable guidance. Hope our collective efforts will one day
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make our studies fruitful. [Editor: Don't know why, this thread broke there. Neither Panditji, nor anyone else came out with new explanations, or ideas. But later in another thread this very same subject, got discussed again in detail. This discussion didn't answer the original question about the 'Logic behind special drishti' satisfactorily, even though some good amount of knowledge sharing happened. The issue was left as an open question to be addressed later in detail. But then again this question got addressed later in a new thread at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_indian_astrology/message/478] Sreenadh:
Once I mentioned that I will find some logical explanation for special drishtis. Here are
some of them - not in detail, just a small sample.
Logic -1
The special drishti is - "Charanabhi vridhita", starts from legs! Now consider kala
purusha, let us allot leg to Sa, 10th house indicates middle portion of legs. Let us make it
short -
Sa = 3rd and 10th = Throat (Sound - Air) and Legs.
Ma = 4th and 8th = Chest and Sexual organs (Courage and Kama) Ju =
5th and 9th = Belly and Thigh
So it is the Kalapurusha concept and the significance of body parts is there behind.
Logic -2 (Not perfect)
The special drishti is - "Charanabhi vridhita", one by fourth!
12/4 = 3. Meaning it increase by 3 signs in the order "Ravija Amaredhya Rudira pare cha"
(Varaha hora), i.e Sa, Ju, Ma, others.
Count 3 from Lagna = 3rd hous = Sa. Count 3
from 3rd house = 5th house = ju
Count 3 from 5th house = 7th house = Ma and others.
Count 3 from 7th house = 9th house = Ju
Count 3 from 9th house = 1 1th house(!) = Sa ?
[Here the logic fails and I stopped]
Logic -3 (Not perfect)
Let us do some mathematics -
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3+10=13 ; 13-12 = 1 ; Lagna
4+8 = 12 ; 12th house
5+9 = 14 ; 14-12 = 2 ; 2nd house
Ju is the karaka for 2nd house. Any connection? Now
the cutest part of this mail:
"Special Complete Drishti" is supported by "NO Rishi horas" of the Arsha Kula! They have
approved only that, ALL PLANETS have -
l/4th Drishti in 3rd and 10 house
1/2 Drishti in 5th and 9th
3/4th Drishti in 4th and 8th
The concept of Special complete Drishti is a concept by Jain school of astrology, and is
first given in Gargi hora. Even Varaha Mihira indicates that it is not his concept but of
others!! In the sloka "Tri dasa trikona kila veekshanedhika", He says that it is an opinion
of "kila", some others (not mihira)! But yes, as you know Laghu parasari supports this
concept of Special complete drishti. (But now the question comes Laghu parasari is by
Parasara or some body else?) Ok, what ever that be, we can accept that
Gargi and Parasara approves the concept of special Drishtis, and it is extensively in use
now a days as well.
Pandit Arjun:
Thanks for listing various logics which give new dimensions. I personally believe the
following logic:
As per NASA, the order of the planets is as follows: SUN
MERCURY
VENUS
EARTH (MOON)
MARS
JUPITER
SATURN
We find Mars, Jupiter and Saturn which are on the other side of earth are assigned special aspects either due to their farthest from sun or some technical scientific reason. I am
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not a scientist but believe there is some deeper meaning in this structure which correlates
to the special aspects of these three planets. Please throw more light from this angle or
correct me if I am wrong. Sreenadh:
In Varaha hora we can find the sloka -
Tridasa trikona chaturashta saptama-
navalokayanti charanabhi vridhita
Ravijamaredhya rudhira parecha ye
Kremaso bhavanti kila veekshanedhika
I think that sloka, reflects all these logics and many more!
About the logic you said - just look at the sequence given in sloka! Ravija (Sa) -
Amaredhya (Ju) - Rudhira (Ma)- Pare cha (Others). So the order is:
Sa->Ju->Ma->||(Earth)||->Others(Mo,Ve,Me,Su)
Listen to the word "Para". The opposite could be "Apara". Is it that Sa, Ju, Ma are - Para
grahas and (Mo),Ve,Me,Su - are Apara grahas? Is it that Para and Apara indicates the two
sides of earth as well?!
Don't confuse - the real meaning of the word Para is "Others". I was just exercising logic.
Want some more?
Apara =A+Pa+ra. As per KTPY (kapadayadi) notation it would be 0-1-2. Writing in
reverse order (the standard method for KTPY), it becomes 210. 210/30 = 7. All the
planets have full drishti in 7th house. Any connection?
Yes, All this concepts about "Special full Drishti" of Sa, Ju and Ma are opinions of
somebody (Garga and Parasara) and not of the tradition followed by Mihira! Look at the
word 'Kila -somebody says! It means that except the Gargi hora reference, Mihira couldn't
find this concept in Skanda hora, Brihal prajapatya, Vasishta Hora, Sounaka Hora,
Kousika hora etc. But yes, I too think that your logic is the best out of the available
ones. Vinita:
Actually I feel a little diffident to talk on this forum because of my lack of knowledge of
the subject. But if you could tolerate a little bit of kite flying - I would love to do this
sometimes.
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Drishti is related to light / reflection of light, isn't it? Light diverges with distance,
doesn't it? All the inner planets are closer to the earth. 180 degrees drishti (no
divergence) therefore applies to them. As the distance increases so does the divergence of
light rays reflected from the outer planets. Mars has the shortest distance from earth among
outer planets so it forms the smallest angle of diversion at 30 degrees from 180 degrees
(8th house dristi). Next comes Jupiter with higher divergence at 60 degrees from 180
degrees (5th and 9th house dristi). Saturn being the farthest from earth has the maximum
angle of diversion (90 degrees divergence from 1 80 degrees for 3rd and
10th house dristis). So maybe the size and the distance of the planets have something to
do with the special dristis of outer planets. (This, however, does not explain the 4th house
dristi of Mars.)
Whatever is written in the ancient scriptures (sans significance) must indicate that
whoever wrote all this had a fairly accurate knowledge about the distances and the size of
planets from the earth.
Back to the theory that this ancient knowledge may have something to do with
visitations from outer space?
Vinita:
There is another angle to this (perhaps).
Why it is that Jupiter has a symmetrical drishti whereas Mars and Saturn have
asymmetrical special drishtis? Could this have something to do with the angle of
obliquity of these planets? Jupiter is the most "straight" planet (as expected?) with the
angle of obliquity = only 3 degrees whereas Mars is tilted 25 degrees and Saturn is tilted
27 degrees. Is this the reason why the special drishtis are not symmetrical? Obliquity of the
Nine Planets
This illustration shows the obliquity of the nine planets. Obliquity is the angle between a
planet's equatorial plane and its orbital plane. By International Astronomical Union (IAU)
convention, a planet's North Pole lies above the ecliptic plane. By this convention,
Venus, Uranus, and Pluto have a retrograde rotation, or a rotation that is in the opposite
direction from the other planets. (Copyright 1999 by Calvin J. Hamilton)
I couldn't help noticing what has been underlined above and its link with a previous
discussion regarding retro lagna. In fact it is thru this discussion that i came to learn the
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basic fundamentals about how lagna is determined in the first place. But it is a strange thought that lagna could be indeterminate for some births on this planet earth. For isn't astrology applicable to everyone who takes birth on this planet?
It's a strange thing that about 4-5 months back I had raised a similar question to Sanjay Rath ji in his class on Panchanga. What I was told was that the rising sun / lagna is a mathematical point. There was some reference to a book also which I don't remember now. It may be there on the audio. [Editor: The thread died - possibly because none of were interested in discussing the half baked diverse theories of Sanjay Rath. There are numerous foolish and useless things told by Rath, which means that on stepping foot on that subject will mean, explaining numerous things, trying to correct the other's perspective. None has enough time to waste for it - and so they must have thought it best to let the thread die-out]
10. Rasi Drishti
[Vijayadas Pradeep, Sreenadh OG, Panditji, Vinita, Pandit Arjun] [Editor: This conversation happened as a continuation of Sreenadh's article on "What is Drishti?". But the discussion that followed concentrated more on Rashi Drishti than on Graha Drishti. Then again, even though started as general discussion on Rasi Drishti, the below discussion turns-out to be a sincere criticism against SJC school of thought in astrology, for which Pt. Sanjay Rath is the big master] Vijayadas Pradeep:
I would like to clear the following doubt on Rasi drishti before proceeding to Graha
Drishti.
1) How is Rasi drishti working?
2) What makes Chara and Sthira aspect each other -Why is the adjacent sign avoided (certain angle is a must for drishti)?
3) If planets are not present in Rasis undergoing Rasi drishti, do such drishtis have any effect?
4) Can Rasi drishti, be universally applied? Sreenadh:
I am not that familiar with Rasi Drishti and its application. I invite other learned
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member to comment on "Rasi Drishti", supplying relevant quotes as well.
Panditji:
I am of the opinion that Rishis mentioned 'bhava'. They did also mention rashis. Is Bhava and rashi (sign) one and the same thing? I do not subscribe to complex division of houses for the reasons of simplicity and like bhava kundali with equal house divisions, meaning each with a 30-degree span. So some grahas will change bhavas. The rashi kundali is used only from chandra (Moon). So when I look at the kundali from chandra lagna, I call that rashi kundali and here only sign positions are taken into account and it is sign = bhava. Looking at kundali from lagna I call it bhava kundali and here the grahas do sift signs based on their degrees vis a vis lagna degree.
Sreenadh:
I don' find any statement in support of considering Rasi and Bhava as separate entities in texts before 10th century. But I do find statements that support considering Rasi and Bhava as one and the same entities, with the only difference that Rasis starts from Aries, and Bhavas starts from Lagna. I support and agree with you point you raised - "Is Bhava and rashi (sign) one and the same thing?"; I would say, yes, they are. . [Editor: Then Vinita referred to Sanjay Rath and SJC school of thought, connected with the use of the BPHS/Jaimini concept of Rashi drishti, and the discussion branched to became a criticism of SJC school of astrological thought]
Vinita: Quote
"I am not that familiar with Rasi Drishti and its application." Unquote
I too wasn't till I got to hear Sanjay Rathji in the last Atri class. Rasi drishti is explained in Chapter 8 of BPHS, which u must already be aware of. One of its applications, according to Jaimini Sutra, is in D-9. According to this Sutra Rasi drishti is to be seen to find the connection with karakas. For instance, the connection with Ketu through Rasi drishti indicates the path for Moksha. You could perhaps listen to the MP3 audio of Sanjayji's class to understand one of the applications of Rasi drishti. The other very beautiful thing I found about the lecture was the intro to Vedic Numerology where the generation of numbers was compared to the wheels within the
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slot machine. Its very exhilarating to think that each one of us could have a unique
number generated by the GREAT TIME SLOT MACHINE.
Sreenadh:
Quote
I am not that familiar with Rasi Drishti and its application.
Unquote
The reason behind was something else. That is, Rasi drishti is not at all discussed in
other schools of astrology, except by Parasara and Jaimini. I was more interested in
the Arsha, Jain (Garga), Yavana Schools of thought, than Yavana, Parasara and
Jaimini for long - The reason being that the first 2 still remain unexplored. The new
revival stream is after Parasara, Jaimini and others will explore it. It is work sharing.
And my field seems to be different. Parasara puts forward many new methods - but let us
first have a clear idea of the methods that were in use before him. Yes, the fact that he
mixed several ideas of Yavanacharya with the true Indian system holds me back to an
extend. But yes, he was great! I don't know much about "Jaimini system" and that too
seems to be different from the original stream - and I am still in doubt, to what
extend we can appreciate the mixing of different streams/schools of thought.
Now coming to Sanjay Rath, I appreciate his efforts, and recently got his book "Crux of
Vedic Astrology", and yet to go through it in detail. I appreciate his efforts in bring into
light the various dasa systems. But for that he seems to depend too much on "Jataka
Parijata" of recent origin. This text "Jataka Parijata" by "Vidya nadha suri" is
considered as a poetical elaboration of the concepts put forward in "Varaha Hora". But
many of the concepts put forward in this text ""Jataka Parijata" does not find authentic
classical support, and to add many are "against" the classical ideas! This is a text that
should be approached only with care - but still an appreciable and worthy text. I am
totally against the divisional chart concept and its absurd explanations put forward by
Sanjay Rath. They find no support from classics, and it seems that he is intentionally
trying to misinterpret the slokas as far as divisional charts are concerned. Yes, It is his
efforts on explaining various dasa systems that should be valued, than that funny
(since no classics supports it) divisional charts concept which came into light from
nowhere. I am stating this only on the basing of having a passing view of his book,
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"Crux of Vedic astrology". Yes, but I should add that it is worthy book for reading
which gives a new outlook for the astrology students and learners. I appreciate this. It
seems that it is the period of renaissance for astrology. Let it be Chandra Hari, PVR,
Sanjay Rath, or our humble efforts - it is causing a new out look to emerge. Yes, this
list is vast, a new thought and an innovative idea joining hand in this tide every
moment.
PS: Many tides may clash each other exchanging energy or causing change of
direction to many others. But they are all tides for sure. Let us value the beauty of
every tide we see around us.
Vinita:
I wish you and others on this forum good luck in your explorations. As for me, I get too
much daunted by this ocean of knowledge and all the waves I would like to just stand
by and watch the play.... hoping that things would connect anyway.... even without the
knowledge / jyotishmati.
Sreenadh:
I forgot to add one point. You said:
Quote
Rasi drishti is to be seen to find the connection with karakas. For instance, the
connection with Ketu through Rasi drishti indicates the path for Moksha.
Unquote
The point that instantaneously originated in my mind is that, we haven't yet discussed the
point "How karakatwas (significance) are considered?" or "How significance of various
things gets associated with planets". The important point is: "Any planet can be a karaka
for anything (as per placement)"! The sloka that instantaneously comes to my mind is -
"Adhipa sarva bhavanam karaka parikeertita" Meaning, the lord of any house is
significator for all the things indicated by that house. House and sign are the same. So it
means that, that planet becomes the significator for everything indicated by that sign as well!
As told earlier, Significance is assigned to -
1) Signs 2) Houses 4) Nakshatras 3) Planets
Let us take the question, who is vidya karaka? Me is vidya karaka, Ju is vidya karaka, Sa
is vidya karaka especially related to sanyasa, Su is vidya karaka since sun
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represents atma, Mo is vidyakaraka since mo represents mind, Ma is vidyakaraka especially related to weapons, etc. Any one can extend it and we would be in trouble if we are trying to assign vidya karakatwa to a single planet alone! The same is the situation, when we are trying to locate Atma karaka and Moksha karaka as well! So I am against the compartmentalization is karakatwas, and let us be flexible in such issues, as we are dealing with a subject that follows holistic method. In this light if we are looking at -
1) Atmakaraka, Pitr karaka etc concept (Parasara/Jaimini)
2) Assigning special fixed karakas to houses
3) Sahamas concept (Forgive my ignorance - who coined that word?) - which as per classical astrology is termed "Sphuta Yoga" - which associates a single thing with special longitudinal degrees.
What should be our view? All these are innovative methods and should be appreciated. But are they part of the original stream of thought? I invite all to shed more light on the issues involved.
PS: We should disuses the question "In how many methods significance could get associated to a planet?' in detail. That is also part of the basics. Vinita ji, thanks for the information shared and my regards to Sanjay ji as well. Forgive my ignorance - but I am yet to learn in detail BPHS and Jaimini sutra. Or it is better to say I am familiar with BPHS to an extend (at least about the concepts discussed in BPHS that are in line with the conventional astrology), but have no idea about Jaimini sutra till now. I should turn my attention in those directions as well - but before that itself, much work to do in other areas. Vinita:
In the final tier, I suppose everything merges. So what is the purpose of compartmentalization, whether it is bhavas, grahas, Karakatwas, or whatever... Somebody compared the different systems of astrology to the different systems that work on computers. Each works fine and independently of the other and gives the desired result. When I read about the predictions for Pramod Mahajan the thought crossed my mind that even with difference of one year in the date of birth / lagna, etc., the predictions converged.... not just of the demise but the life profile too!!!
Each person had very convincing reasons for the prediction. (How convincing I am no one to judge because I know nothing of the subject). Maybe we should not mix up systems
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because then we will get very mixed up results. Each branch of knowledge can shine on
its own, perhaps.
Sreenadh:
Quote
In the final tier, I suppose everything merges. So what is the purpose of
compartmentalization, whether it is bhavas, grahas, Karakatwas, or whatever... Unquote
Yes, you are right. But the point is "mind can ONLY deal with classifications", and so there is no other way but to compartmentalize. But it leads to the thought that, every compartment (or parts of the system) is water proof and is not at all connected with the other. Where us whole does not have any compartmentalization/classification at all!! The is reason for my statement, I am against compartmentalization, but from the above you could see that, me (or any one) have to resort to classifications and compartmentalization to an extend. There is no other way! It is the way the mind works, so we have no escape! It is something like trying to have a grasp of the thing beyond the system from within the system (or by using the system) itself. Since the system is also part of the beyond. It is again where the frame of reference comes into consideration. Quote:
Maybe we should not mix up systems because then we will get very mixed up results. Unquote
The same reasons for compartmentalization applies here as well. Let us study the parts and then try to get the total view and resolve the "Why?"s. Otherwise we will get unnecessarily confused. That is why "not mixing the systems" becomes important. Quote
Each branch of knowledge can shine on its own, perhaps. Unquote
Yes, Each branch of knowledge can shine on its own. And it can shine together only in the hands of a person who is the true master of all systems! Even those Rishis never argued that they are master of all and better than all! You are exactly on the crux! Panditji:
One thing Vinitaji said caught my eye. Quote
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Even with a difference of one year, the predictions converged, even life profile. Unquote
One will realize very soon in this subject that once the event is known or the facts are known, anything can be justified, seen and even portrayed as obvious. The modern day reliance on divisions as divisional charts, myriads of dasas without understanding of how to apply them, has completely messed up all the things even more. People who introduce new parameters, some with a classical reference interpreted to one's convenience and some invented parameters; it is not too difficult to see ANY known event in ANY chart. It will not surprise me if Bill Gates' Dhana Yogas are seen in my chart if my chart was presented as a authentic chart of Bill gates. Post your own chart here and say it belongs to latest newsmakers and be assured that everything will be seen in that chart. The best jyotishi is one who uses time-tested principles and applies them consistently and if he fails in predictions atleast he has a foundation to go back to and refine his understanding. If one chases after new inventions in jyotish, there is no prayer of ever making correct predictions.
Coming back to Mr. Mahajan's chart, someone shot at close range [Editor: He is hinting at KN Rao's and Madhu Nair's predictions], there were only three outcomes possible, Death, Recovery with impairment, or full recovery. The third option, with seriousness of the event was remote. So all one had to do was look at the latest reports and move in that direction. It is funny how a few predicted recovery, [Editor: he is hinting at Sanjay Rath's prediction] after star news reported that things are improving. An event whose probability was 50-50 or at worst 33-33-33, does one really need jyotish? If someone had predicted to him that there is danger to his life before the event, I call it prediction; rest is an exercise in futility.
Sreenadh:
I love those words! The true seekers have much to learn from your words.
Pandit Arjun:
As pandit ji has rightly observed even I too echoed similar sentiments earlier in various groups. Hindsight analysis is the easiest for any astrologer. Not to put astrology in bad light, one can deduce astrological reasoning with classical references of any event that has happened already from any date of birth with any ascendant in any
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planetary placement. As to how this hindsight analysis is done is people take refuge in lagna chart, navamsa, ashtaka varga analysis, shadbala, various existing and non-existing yogas, other divisional charts, Nakshatras, then conjunctions and aspects in lagna chart and the same in navamsa and other divisional charts, do all these separately for planets as well as rashis, various dasha systems and keep switching to various dasha systems till you find a culprit. Do through in-depth analysis on "n" number of divisional charts with all the above again. Even if you can't find any culprit, just change the Ayanamsa from Lahiri to Raman or to any 101 newer ones lo, you get various new ascendants and new combinations and changed dasha systems. Enough food for thought. Prediction is the most difficult part of an astrologer and not analysis. Hence an astrologer shall keep predicting without any fear and it generally takes two decades before most of his predictions come true and making the practice of an astrologer perfect.
Sreenadh:
Lol... I too knew this. And that is why STANDS AGAINST such practices that tries to find resort in various practices such as many dasa systems, many divisional charts, many Lagnas, many types of drishtis, many existent and non existent yogas, various Ayanamsas and add to it ashtaka varga and gochara-vedha systems. Above all now add the concept of "Transit in D-charts" as well! With all these tools which event can go un- EXPLAINED. But all these myriads HELP only and in EXPLANATION and NOT in ACTUAL PREDICION. Most of them do not find supports from classics, and some of them are slightly supported by classics. Even for those slightly supported concepts there in no well-defined and authentic rule that clearly states, which one to select. Any many are trying to catch their own fish for food and fame in those muddy waters. Yes, the actual practicing astrologers KNOWS which are useful to them, and why the time-tested methods of the classics are better from their own daily direct experience. I completely agree with you, and support your views.
[Editor: By now the discussion has gone too far from Rashi Drishti and became a clear
criticism of SJC methods. Even though not leaving that trend, Vijaydas Pradeep tried to
bring back the discussion to 'Rashi Drishti' itself]
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Vijayadas Pradeep:
My strong feeling is Rashi drishtis are not to be used along with Graha drishti. Rashi
dashas are not based on the Nakshatra placement of moon and progressions, rather that of
Rashis. Grahas in Chara rashis can influence those in Sthira Rashis(Chara has some reason
to influence Sthira and vice-versa?). Similarly Grahas in Dwiswabhava (Duel) Rashis will
influence those in other Dwiswabhava rashis. If we study carefully, why immediate
Sthira and Chara rashis are avoided, can be understood. For a Graha to influence another
rashi a minimum angle is must. Dwiswabhava rashis are always in kendra from one
another, and hence there is no need for such an exclusion. Rashi drishtis will explain
how planets can influence another rashi/planets, while thinking of Rashi based progressions.
We should never ever mix these two systems.
Also I got a chance today to listen to the audio from shri Rath ji (As advised by Vinita ji). It
is very clear that shri Sanjay Rath is a scholar and has in-depth knowledge. It is also true
that he has been doing a lot towards promotion of jyotish and providing free knowledge.
Myself is really thankful and respectful towards that. But I am afraid and sorry to say that
Shri Sanjay Rath has not understood the concept of Divisional charts and Karakamsha
analysis very well.
Let us take a case which i had mentioned in the past too. Sun joining Karakamsha will give
political connections - Most translators have interpreted this as Sun joining
Atmakaraka in the navamsa. This is not correct, as, then all with Sun as Atmakaraka will
have political connections.
We have only 12 Rashis. The rashi on to which Atmakaraka graha has navamsa
becomes Karakamsha Rashi. If Sun is placed in this Rashi, then the yoga applies. Saturn
(Shani) joining Karakamsha rashi - fame and doing well in his line of
occupation.lt is very clear that, the rashi on to which Atmakaraka graha has amsha is the
environment where the aatma or soul has applied prana/life(navamsas are
navapranas).If a hardworking planet like Saturn is there to promote the desire of soul, will
not that person become famous in his line?
Similarly Chandrena Gouryam - It simply means if Chandra is there in Karakamsha
Rashi,then one worships Gowri. Rahu Durga - Shri Rath has brought in concepts of
Rashi drishti etc to make matters worse.Jaimini has not told us to use rashi drishti in so
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called "D-9".
Now Graha drishti logic can be studied in detail, without much confusion.
Sreenadh:
Quote
For a Graha to influence another rashi a minimum angle is must. Dwiswabhava rashis
are always in kendra from one another, and hence there is no need for such an
exclusion.
Unquote
Those statements contradict. By the first statement you are accepting that "Drishti is
'related to' angle between planets/rashis". It seems that you are speaking about "Rashi
Drishti", although you are using the wordings 'for a Graha to influence'. The angle
between Chara signs is 90 deg, the angle between Sthira signs is 90 deg, the angle
between Ubhaya signs is 90 deg. But how you are going to associate angle when - Chara
signs has Rasi drishti only on Sthira signs and Sthira signs has Rasi drishti only on Chara
signs? Kendras are separated by 90 deg. But if Aries aspects Le, Sc and Aq, then, the
angle between Ar and Le is 150 deg, between Le and Sc is 90 deg and between Sc and
Aq is 90 deg. So the point is, you cannot compare Rasi drishti to Ubhaya (Dwiswabhava)
signs and that of Chara (movable) and Sthira (fixed) signs. I hope that you got the point.
Now why don't you, have a look at another angel of view. I will state it for you - below.
• Fixed drishti between signs is like characteristics of the signs itself. Then what is the purpose of the concepts like 'Rasi drishti' itself?! Describing the characteristics of the signs itself will explain the effects of Rasi drishti as well. Or in other words Rasi Drishti is a concept similar to Chara- Sthira-Ubhaya, Male-Female, etc classifications, which describe the nature of a sign. Instead of describing the nature of the sign, coining words and concepts like 'Rasi drishti' contradicts the basics and that is why no Rishi of Arsha (Skanda) and Jain (Garga) school speaks about it.
• Rasi drishti has a FIXED nature and is NOT DYNAMIC like Graha drishti, which changes from horoscope to horoscope. This also should hold as back from using them in the similar way. Yes, I always appreciate your intuition, as evident from the words -
Quote
My strong feeling is Rashi drishtis are not to be used along with Graha drishti.
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Unquote
Again in your own words:
Quote
We should never ever mix these two systems, (i.e. Rasi Drishti and Graha Drishti) Unquote I agree to it. About Sanjay Rath ji: Quote
It is very clear that Shri Sanjay Rath is a scholar and has in-depth knowledge. It is also
true that he has been doing a lot towards promotion of jyotish and providing free
knowledge. Unquote
Yes, I support those statements and truly appreciate the research he has done about the system of astrology. But the PROBLEM is, he takes some concepts from some astrological classics, INVENTS (!) its new applications all by himself! (It is violation of studentship of the ancient Indian system of astrology!) For the first step he always provides quotes, but alas for the second step how to provide quotes when there no such thing exists! For example:
1) In Pradeep's words: "Jaimini has not told us to use rashi drishti in so called "D- 9"." Yes, he INVENTS the application of everything in D-Charts, and INVENTS new items about which every D-Chart (higher multiples) should talk about, he INVENTS methods to calculate anther Dasas and anther dasa periods where no such things are provided!! He is a very good INVENTOR!! :)) If not FUNNY what is this? Is it that he considers himself as equivalent to Rishis who breached the barriers of the world (the system that is world) and created the astrological
system which can be used to have a glimpse of the working of the beyond (i.e. destiny/time or mahakala). Those who want to study and use the "ancient indian astrology by the saints" will_not/can_not accept this. If some one is doing this then he is becoming the students of the "Rathian system" and NOT of the original streams like - Arsha system, Vedic system, Tantric system, Yavana system etc. Because the D-charts, and the new applications of higher D-charts INVENTED by Rath,
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the special things of analysis he associates with different dasa systems etc are NOT
supported by classics. Yes, but what ever this be the new energy he brought into astrology
and his hard work on Dasa systems, the evolvement of the great programmer like PVR who
put everyone of Rath's ideas into his software JH 7.0, the great co- ordination
capabilities, the popularity he brought in for astrology in the west - all these should be
appreciated, and is of immense value. My love and regards to him.
PS: Pradeep ji, may be now it is clear why 'Drishti' means 'Graha Drishti' only and
NOT'RasiDrishti'.
Vijayadas Pradeep:
Quote
It seems that you are speaking about "Rashi Drishti", although you are using the
wordings 'for a Graha to influence'. Unquote
You are right, I was pointing to Rashi drishti -though using "for a Graha to influence".
I feel as you have said later in the mail, Grahas placed in Chara Rashi have a relation or necessity to interact with Sthira and vice-versa. This is a fixed aspect concerned with the nature of a Rashi. It is like one individual, subjected to specific circumstances, having a desire/need to interact with one from another background. This has something to do with, the fundamentals of astrology system (Why Chara should aspect Sthira). Some reason is there behind the repetitive pattern of a) chara/sthira/ubhaya then again Chara b)Dharama/Artha/Kama/Moksha c)Fire/earth/water/air etc. Quote
Those statements contradict. By the first statement you are accepting that "Drishti is
'related to' angle between planets/rashis". Unquote
Regarding angles, I feel I was not clear enough - Though Chara aspects only Sthira, it does not aspect the Sthira next to it. It means it is not just the nature (Chara/Sthira) but the angle also matters for an aspect. Thus for Rashi drishti the nature of rashis forms the basis, but the basic rule of an angle
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is also needed for the grahas placed in those rashis.
As Ubhaya rashis can aspect only Ubhaya rashis, the question of angle does not arise. They
are in Kendras. Angle is the basic criterion. Graha decides Graha drishti, while nature of
the Rashi decides Rashi drishti.
As you have rightly said, these concepts are already incorporated, if we use all the
parameters like nature of rashi, male-female, dharma/artha, enmity, avsthas of planets etc
etc.
I feel progression of Rashis,have links with the process of Srishti-Sthiti-Samhara
(Creation-Sustaining-Destruction). Rashi drishti should be studied only when we use
timing patterns based on Rashi viz-Rashi dashas.
Thanks for the valuable points giving direction to our studies.
Sreenadh:
We cannot be sure whether 'Drishti' means 'relative angle between planets' or not. Have a look at the question of Arjun ji. We don't know the exact logic behind special Drishtis. Till we understand it, we can not be sure what Drishti is, although we can temporarily we can accept the definition, 'Graha Drishti is relative signs the planets influence from the sign of their placement'. But, yes, it does not look perfect.
But till we explore the logic behind 'Special Drishti' etc, I don't think we have another choice. Accepting the definition, 'Drishti means relative angle between planets', is a definition that has existence only after Sripati, and supporting it will bring to front the whole absurdity of considering sign and house separately, calculating drishti percentage for all degrees etc. So think twice before resorting to some definitions concerning 'Drishti'.
PS: It takes time for the stone fallen into the deep well to produce a sound. So is the mind of the wise person. So is the info that falls into the mind of the wise. He patiently waits long enough before forming conclusions, and spells them out. So please don't jump into conclusions.
Vijayadas Pradeep:
Thanks for the tips. As you have rightly said, it is unwise to reach fast conclusions. We
will keep it open.
Now regarding question from Arjun ji - Some months back i had attempted the
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Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006 astronomical angle of this, in Jyotish group site.
Imagine you are standing near a Huge Ball. Your visibility is just on the surface facing you. Sun/Mercury/Venus are close to earth and within the inner circle -aspecting 7th house(abhimukha).Once you start moving backwards, visibility increases. By aspect sages are only considering Poorna (complete/full) drishti (including special aspects). Thus mutual disposition between Earth/Mars gives Mars to aspect 4/8 houses apart from 7th. Now think of Jupiter - Moving further back -It gives a possibility for tangential aspects 5th/9th.Thus you see the position of Jupiter is the best position to get a general/broad overview of matters.
Now think of Saturn - moving backwards - try drawing tangential lines as if they are coming from a torch - the angle of view narrows- aspecting 3 & 10. Why the aspect is on 10th and not on 1 1th, can be based on the mutual disposition and angle/tilt. Now why they are positioned like this. I feel they have a role to play on the said houses. Thus astronomical positioning is just the projection of similar aspects within us. [Editor: The thread stopped, and none came forward with new ideas to explain 'Rashi Drishti' and the possible logic behind the same. The questions raised by Vijayadas Pradeep ji remained un-resolved even though some knowledge sharing happened]
11. Pramod Mahajan's Death
[Madhu Nair, Sreenadh OG, Nalini, Pandit Arjun, Sreekumar, Rama Vootala] [Editor: Pramod Venkatesh Mahajan (30 October 1949 - 3 May 2006) was a prominent Indian politician. He was one of the most powerful second generation leaders of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP)
and member of Rajya Sabha. On 22 April 2006, he was shot at and fatally injured by his
brother Pravin Mahajan over a family dispute. He succumbed to his wounds 13 days later. His
brother was sentenced to lifetime imprisonment by the court in 2007. (Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pramod_Mahajan). During these incidents a discussion about
the same from astrological perspective happened in AIA. The following discussion write-up
is a snapshot of the same. These discussions started on 24th April in AIA group and ended in the middle of May many days after the death of Mahajan. The discussion was a proof and record of the predictive ability and inability of many astrologers within and outside AIA, and was much informative]
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Madhu Nair (on 24th April):
By this time, all of you might have heard about the tragic and unfortunate incident
occurred to Pramod Mahajan, the upright, dynamic, media favorite, leader of BJP, who
according to many impartial political onlookers ,was poised to take over as PM of India,
once NDA assumes power. Let us have a look at his horoscope To prove Pramod
Mahajan is born on 1949, 1 give below two authentic links.
1) http://rajyasabha.nic.in/kiosk/whoswho/beta_m2.htm
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pramod_Mahajan Horoscopic Data
State : Andhra Pradesh Place : Mahaboob Nagar DOB: 30 Oct, 1949
Time: 15:57 (Rectified ) Asc: 10Pi46
DBA: Me/Me/ Ju from 14 April To 9 Aug 2006 Analysis
The Dasha cum sub period lord Mercury apart from being Maraka-Badhaka suffers from UbhayaKendradhipathya Dosha and is 5th Nakshatra Dasha (Prathyara Tara) and is in Rasi Sandhi (Past 29* of Virgo). The sub-sub period lord Jupiter rules Ascendant (Physical Body) and is in fall. Natal Jupiter (signifying Liver, intestines etc) is afflicted in Transit by Saturn, the 12L cum 22nd Decante Lord, Mars & Kethu (Full Aspect) A SE occurred on 14* Pi on 29 March, 2006.1n my studies, I have observed, next entry of a planet in to the SE Degree often triggers off an important incident in the life of the native (Not a thumb rule) . Mercury, the MD cum SB in Transit was just over this Degree on 22 April when he was shot. His natal Chiron (A situation of life and death) is being squared by Tr Uranus (Suddenness) from 12H (Hospitalization) With these adverse planetary indications, recovery of Mahajan seems remote. Especially, on 28 April, when Moon in Tr passes over Bharani Nakshatra, it will be very very crucial May GOD save him. Madhu Nair (on 26th April):
Permit me to discuss some interesting points found in the chart of Sri Mahajan, from
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academic point of view, based on the chart, cast for the time furnished, by me, in my previous message. Presence of Agni-Marutha Yoga
There is a caste/community called "Kaniyars or Ganaka's", (rechristened as "Gurukshetra Samajams", in these days), in Kerala, who were in yesteryears, assigned exclusively, the task of making and delineating horoscopes. The veterans Kaniyars of yesteryears use to say that the presence of Agni-Marutha Yoga (Mars, Saturn conjunction ) occurring in 6-8-12 Houses with either of the planets something to do with 8H, invariably bring troubles galore to the native from Fire(Arms & ammunition), Air or Natural calamities. Interestingly, you could find an AM Yoga in the chart of Mahajan , in his 6H, identical with fiery sign Leo, with Saturn, a constituent of the Yoga , aspecting the 8H. Although the degree difference between these two planets is 14*, they share the same Bhava (Sripathi). In fact the lengthy difference in longitude between these two planets is the reason for the delayed manifestation of this unfortunate incident in native's life. Sun, another fiery planet, is longitudinally, less than 4* of 8th House Bhava Madhya, and obviously exerts a profound influence on 8th house matters. The Health sign Virgo that stands for umbilical region (Waist & Intestine) is hemmed between natural malefics and AM Yoga in sign Leo, that represents stomach (upper abdomen), is a pointer for trouble in this area, at some point of time or the other. The Dasha cum Bhukthi lord Mercury is placed in Chitra Nakshatra categorized as "Agni Bhuta Nakshatra"
At the moment, the one and only positive point, if I may say so, is the Trinal Transit movements of Jupiter to natal Moon; however, it remains to be seen whether Tr Jupiter in RX motion in its inimical sign Libra could be of any help to the native and will speed up recovery. As mentioned in my previous mail, 28 April will be very crucial for the native with Tr Moon moving in Bharani Nakshatra.
[Editor: Nalini made it a chance to ask about her own horoscope; a usual effort done by
many in such Yahoo group discussions about any subject. But the effort went futile with two
of the to the point answers that followed]
Nalini:
Namaskar. When in a chart, Mars 6th lord, is in Capricorn, 8th house owned by 8th and
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9th lord, Saturn (Mars conjunct venus in 8th)would the AM yoga still apply. 6th house is
scorpio. 8th lord is in 7th conjunct 7th lord Jupiter in Sagittarius.
Madhu Nair:
From your mail, what I understand is:
Ascendant: Gemini
aAix.
Mars & Venus: Capricorn
Jupiter & Saturn: Sagittarius
NO. There is NO AM Yoga in this chart.
Sreenadh:
Mars indicates Fire, Saturn indicates Air/Wind. Wild Fire will cause much damage if
helped with Wind as well. By the way - Agni means Fire, and Maruta means
Air/Wind. Both Mars and Saturn are Malefics, and so there combination will produce
worst results in most of the situations. If Sun and Mercury is together then Intelligence
results and so we call it Nipuna yoga (yoga that gives intelligence and efficiency),
similarly if Mars and Saturn are together we call it Agni-Maruta Yoga (Fire-Air
Combination). Mix the significance of Mars and Saturn and you will get the result for
prediction.
1) Usually Agni-Maruta Yoga means that Sa and Ma are together in the sign. But other relations can also be considered. For example-
2) If Ma aspects (Drishti) Sa and Sa aspects (Drishti) Ma then also harsh results will follow. You can term it Agni-Maruta effect.
3) If Ma is in the sign of Sa, and Sa is in the sign of Ma then also harsh results will follw. You can term it Agni-Maruta effect.
4) If Ma and Sa are in the sign of the same planet, then also harsh results can follow. You can term it Agni-Maruta effect.
5) If Ma is strongly placed in the Kendra of Sa and Sa is strongly placed in the Kendra of Ma, then also harsh results could follow (but the end results will be usually good). You can term it Agni-Maruta effect.
It is not that Agni-Maruta effect is always bad. If you are a violent, criminal minded person, then after a turbulent violet series of events, it can bring good results as well, if Ma and Sa are well placed. But yes, the Sa-Ma combination indicates a violent, turbulent
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series of event, shaking you root to top.
Quote
When in a chart, Mars 6th lord, is in Capricorn, 8th house owned by 8th and 9th lord, Saturn (Mars conjunct Venus in 8th) would the AM yoga still apply. 6th house is scorpio. 8th lord is in 7th conjunct 7th lord Jupiter in-Sagittarius.
Unquote
In your horoscope you speak about Gemini is the Lagna, Sa and Ju is in 7th and Ma and
Ve are in 8th.
1) Here even though Ma is in the sign of Sa, Sa is not in the sign of Ma.
2) There is no Drishti in between Sa and Ma in this horoscope.
3) There is no Sa-Ma conjunction in this horoscope
So there is no Agni-Maruta yoga present in this horoscope. By the way - Names (like Agni-Maruta Yoga) are not that important, but the Ma-Sa combination and its effect. It is about the effects of Ma-Sa combination is what Madhu ji speaks about. He presented the name Agni-Maruta yoga to substantiate his argument in support of, danger from "Fire (Arms & ammunition), Air or Natural calamities". What he says is right and exact to the point-
"Mars, Saturn conjunction occurring in 6-8-12 Houses with either of the planets something to do with 8H, invariably bring troubles galore to the native from Fire (Arms & ammunition), Air or Natural calamities." That is a lesson he learned from the Kerala tradition, and by mentioning the Ganaka community (who preserved the ancient astrological knowledge in Kerala for long) he is paying tribute to them and their astrological knowledge.
Instead of becoming worried by hearing the big name "Agni-Maruta Yoga", take it in the right spirits and feel relaxed. There is no Agni-Maruta yoga in your horoscope.
[Editor: Even though the branch started by Nalini to discuss her own horoscope
continued for some time by others, with these replies the major thread was back to its own
track.]
Madhu Nair (on 1st May):
I am inclined to comment on Sri Mahajan's chart, since a member from a prominent yahoo group tells me offline that a BIG Name in Jyotish has come out with a
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prediction that Mahajan will survive this present crisis and even become Minister in the near future. Let me remind the esteemed members of this list that I have consistently maintained that Mahajan is unlikely to survive the present crisis duly advancing sound arguments. In my earlier mails , I invited the attention of members to the fact that Moon in Transit in Bharani Nakshatra(8L) will be crucial. I was keeping my fingers crossed and was anxiously waiting for some development. On 29 April, the New Indian Express and The Malayala Manorama reported , Mahajan was taken for CT Scan on 28th and suffered worst setback on that day , prior to which it was believed he was gradually improving. Now I request students of Jyotish to keenly watch the developments, when Mn Transit Ardra & Ashlesha Nakshatra's. Ardra's Dashanath is Rahu, that in turn is placed in the nakshatra of Mercury , the 7L cum Dasha/ Sub period in currency. The same yardstick apply to Aslesha Nakshatra ruled by none other than the planet Mercury as VMD. The most important point , one should take into consideration is the Tr of the Luminary Sun , the 6L (Disease) in 8L asterism (Bharani Nakshatra) upto 12 May, 2006. It will be a miracle if he survives upto 12 May (Provided the Time taken rectified by me is correct). Constructive criticism , without competitive mentality , from esteemed members most welcome. Sreenadh:
The following horoscope data seems to be authentic (since it is directly collected from the immediate relatives of Pramod Mahajan) State: Andhra Pradesh Place: Mahaboob Nagar DOB: 30 Oct, 1948 Time: 21:21 hrs Please reassess the predictions based on this time.
[Editor: This information was collected from KN Rao's article]
MadhuNair (on 3rd May 7.04 AM):
Sorry Sreenadh, I have to disagree with you regarding the year of Birth of Mahajan. .Since I am familiar with the tricks of fame hunting astrologers ,making horoscopes for celebrities , that includes Lady Diana, Former US President Clinton, Dr Jayalalitha, Dr Karunanidhi, Sachin Tendulkar, Sanjay Gandhi, Rajeev
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Gandhi,Chandrababu Naidu etc it is a different question. The first thing I use to do in a celebrity horoscope is to ensure whether the known past events tallies with the planetary Geometry. I have solid reasons to believe the time taken by me for Mahajan is very correct. Please allow me a grace period upto 13 May (The day Tr. Sn will leave Bharani Nakshatra).If Mahajan is alive on 13 May, it will be a Miracle as per this horoscopic data of me. With the aid of Transits, I could explain convincingly all the known events of Mahajan from the chart cast for the time taken by me. Proximity to a top level politician implies an authority, as well as contains a connotation that the Astrologer consulted is a Master in his field, to whom even the country's high flying politician queue-up. Those who claim that they have been consulted by Mahajan's wife three years back; should also exhibit intellectual honesty to tell us whether they were able to foresee such an untoward incident from Mahajan's chart. Whereas even a tyro could easily predict danger to Mahajan, (Trouble from Astra shasta ayudha agni, vayu etc) at some stage of life. With all the humility, I possess Sreenadh, I tell you, Mahajan is not going to survive this crisis either on coming Aslesha star day or any day prior to 13 May, we will hear sad news. This is my reading.
MadhuNair (On 3rd May 2.41 PM):
Seven minutes earlier, Mahajan left his mortal coil to heavenly abode. Though it is a very very sad event, astrologically, it confirms the accuracy of the Ascendant taken by me.
Sreenadh:
You have proved your point - and the events support it. Excellent! Your work was excellent!
Pandit Arjun:
Personally I appreciate you for your bold prediction of Pramod Mahajan passing away. May god shower his divine grace on you to keep making such bold predictions for future as well.
Madhu Nair:
For a Non-practicing guy, who pursuits knowledge like a sinking star, Motivation is the only reward for his labor and a catalyst for further studies. I remain obliged to you for your thoughtful encouragement.
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Sreekumar:
Great prediction. I am really impressed the way you have calculated the transit of planets thru star. Good use of stellar astrology.
Madhu Nair:
Glad to learn that you found food for thought in my humble scribble. Many Thanks for your encouragement.
Rama Vootala:
Sri Madhu, Sri KN Rao predicted that Mahajan might not live beyond 5 May and yours is 13 may. How is his birth data nor more accurate than yours?
Madhu Nair:
First of all, let me tell you, my prediction was based on 30 Oct 1949 and with Pisces rising. I use to verify a chart using multiple techniques; however I am too poor in fixing ones Ascendant by seeing the native's photograph or the native himself in flesh and blood. I am telling you this because some astrologers out rightly reject a particular ascendant , whilst doing rectification exercise , since the attributes of the signs mentioned in the classical text fails to tally with the appearance of the native. As far as my knowledge goes, fixing ascendant by taking appearance into consideration fails in vast majority of cases, if not, in all cases. There is another group of astrologers, especially, those following KP, to justify past events on a rectified chart using Dasha/Bhukties . This is just an eye wash and is a misguidance given to the gullible for any event subsequent to its occurrence could be justified using any Dashas by any one. What that really matters is Transits and Yogas present in the chart. Transits of planets through sensitive points (Angles, Cusps , Bhava Madhya's or MEP, or PNE's/SE points ) often stimulate important events in ones life. Anyone , repeat anyone, with elementary knowledge in Jyotish ,who would have seen Mahajan's Chart earlier, cast on the time and Date mentioned by me , could have foretold a calamitous incident in his life , due to the presence of "Agni Marutha Yoga" , strengthened by the virtue of its sign depositor Sun, a fiery planet , very close to the MEP of 8H .The elders of the Kaniyars of Kerala of yesteryears says presence of Agni Marutha Yoga in
6-8-12 Houses of a chart with either of the planet something to do with 8H (Ofcourse it goes without saying that the Yoga in 6H will obviously connect Saturn with 8H , since
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it will aspect 8H through its 3rd house Drishti ) will make the subject
predisposed to trouble from "Ayudha, Agni Astra Shastra & Vayu".
Follow my previous messages carefully; you could find the crux of my prediction, that
Mahajan's death was fast approaching ,revolves around the Transits of Luminaries,
especially Sun, in Bharani Nakshatra whose VMD is Venus, the 8L of Death. You
should also take cognizance that Venus in his chart is lord of 3H (Siblings) and also lord
of 8H(Mode of Death) .Ofcourse there are several other irrefutable evidence to prove
that the time taken by me is correct beyond a shadow of doubt , but then this was one
of the major points. All known events of Mahajan can be explained coherently
with the chart mentioned by me.
Rama Vootala:
Then I should ask you ~ are transits and Yogas more strong than the Dasas and Lagna
placement in revealing a native's destiny in a horoscope? The Q is in a proper learning
spirit.
Regarding Mahajan's chart, I cannot say anything as Sri KN Rao also verifies it with the
events and only then predicts. If Sri Rath, Sri Rao and yourself have predicted it correct
with 3 different Lagnas (diff. birth times), at least two of you have made predictions
with the incorrect data and that makes those two more Sidhas than Jyotishi (astrologer)
Sreenadh:
Yogas are essentially related to Lagna itself. The 3 things are supposed to consider in any (horoscope based) prediction is:
1) Yogas (The 7 fold combinations that form the base of astrology)
2) Dasas (For locating the time period of influence)
3) Transit (The environmental supportive effect that confirms the event)
The importance of them is in the order given above itself. If one feels that Sidhas better, one should go to Yogi Karve for birth time rectification, than to an astrologer. But we are here more interested in Jyotish (Astrology) than in Sidhas, right? I have heard that Sidhas are more interested in other things than astrology. As for as astrology is concerned we are supposed to follow a systematic path, than to depend too much on intuition. If intuition is sufficient, why they need astrology at all! Sidhas can live without astrology I think. Of course I am not against Sidhi, but I support astrology when I
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am learning and using astrology, than to hide myself by saying that "the prediction came from my Sidhi, and not from systematic and logical approach of astrology". If Sidhi is what I need, why should I learn astrology at all! Real Sidhas can live without astrology and CANNOT teach astrology, since they never learned it. I don't think neither KN Rao ji, nor Sanjay Rath will argue that they predicted with Sidhi, rather than astrology. As far as I know, they are astrologers, following different systems of thought and tradition. I hope you will agree.
Madhu Nair:
The widely circulated Malayalam daily , Deshabhimani, the official organ of the communist party (Marxist) , CPI(M), has come out today (Tvm, edn), disparaging the science of Jyotish as meaningless, citing the failed prediction in the web as well as some issued by a reputed astrologer, as regards Pramod Mahajan, as a testimony for its argument.
Sreenadh:
Let them do what they want. Astrology stands tall even after the trials and turbulences of the past thousands of years. If it has any content with in it will survive! If not it would naturally perish - why should we worry. [The words "survival of the fittest" comes to my mind!] Let us continue with our studies and efforts - and let the journalists describe the meditation from outside! The beauty of meditation is only for the meditater and the fragrance is for the people all around him. Also remember that there is there is thousands of false saints around and also that every trial may not lead even the true meditater to the meditative trance.
[Editor: The thread ended there with a pleasant experience of a successful prediction by a good
and knowledgeable astrologer Madhu Nair]
12. What on earth is east?
[Vernalaginia, Sreenadh OG, Bharat]
[Vernalaginia was a unique individual. I never came to know his actual name. He was present in the group for some days and I came to know that with his rebellious but knowledgeable spirit he caused trouble in every group he entered. He was active in AIA for some time, then vanished all of a sudden from all yahoo groups. I will love to meet and talk to him again and again, because his thoughts and directions were always unique] Vernalagnia:
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I was yesterday messing with another Group about the lagna and its retrogression, and the
air got understandably sepulchral Anyway, that prompts me to ask something that I've not
found an answer to yet. Since the Lagna is what rises at the eastern horizon, what on
earth is east? Assume that I live in this cute Russian port city of Murmansk, and it's the
middle of a deep and dark December, with no Rasi likely to rise in the east until late
spring...
Sreenadh:
Everybody knows about the 4, 8 or 10 directions.
4 - North, East, West, South [NEWS!]
8 - 4 sides, and 4 corners
10-4 sides, and 4 corners, Up, down.
So for sure you are not asking about it for sure. But your question seems to be of a
different spirit. If I could put it other words, "If the earth is round, and since earth is a
globe that revolves around the sun in this vast sky, sun and the solar system itself is
just part of this unimaginably vast universe, then what is the importance of directions,
especially in horoscope? If the concept of directions itself only exists in the limited
brain of the local human being, then what is the point in casting destiny based on
that?" I think this is the question that is lurking in your mind. I hope that I got it right.
Before answering that question, let us first consider the situation of the saints who
created this system. They were trying to study the movements in the sky and was
trying to correlate with the rhythm of destiny(events and changing situations in life
related to time), just like we look at the watch to know the time. Watch does not
CONTROL time, so as planets does not CONTROL destiny. (It is just an example for
clarity). Now coming to the study of movements of heavenly bodies in solar system
(our limited universe), the movement of earth itself is more important to us than the
movement of any other planet or the satellite that is moon or the nods Ra and Ke.
Earth has 2 types of movements, 1) Rotation around Sun and 2) Revolution (we add
the concept of an imaginary axis to grasp it).
1) Rotation of earth around Sun
Due to this only the months change, and the climate in earth is related to it. Viewing
from earth, this change could be associated to the FELT movement of Sun, to the
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northern and southern hemisphere. Yes, the yearly rotation of the sun is depicted in the horoscope as the movement of Sun through the Rasi chakra (Zodiac). 2) Revolution of earth
It is a more important movement to us than the previous one (since we live in this earth itself) :) The day and night is directly related to this as you know. So they need some system to depict this movement. Viewing from earth, this change could be associated to the FELT movement of sky in eastern horizon. (I don't think, there would any difficulty for any learned person in locating the east from where he stands on earth. The general - not fully correct - statement is that it is the direction where the sun rises). Yes, the daily revolution of earth is depicted in the horoscope as the movement of Lagna (Asc) through the Rasi chakra (Zodiac). By the way Rasi chakra or Zodiac means the total sky AROUND earth. So in essence, speaking scientifically, Lagna (i.e. eastern horizon related to, or as seen from that place) should be associated to the Angle of revolution of earth related to that place'. I think it is clear. In the light of this knowledge, I think the importance of your question vanishes, and also the knowledge and sincerity of the saints who created the system of astrology gets reflected. Now do your homework and come forward with some new idea related to this, clarifying things for the benefit of us all.
PS 1 : Please look at your short question and the length of my answer. (It is not just particular to me but to all who is trying to answer the queries put forward) If just reflects the effort, one has to take in explaining things. (Not me, but any one who is answering any type of queries) The person who is asking (or demanding) answer should understand this and ask only relevant questions and should depict the effort he has put in that direction before expecting the answer. At times, the persons who post the queries fails to understand this, and the question might go unanswered. It may happen to people who are sincerely posting genuine questions, since they fail to reflect their true intentions, of posing the question in the message. In such instances usually he is supposed rectify it and amend it in the subsequent postings.
[It is usually an untold rule followed in all the forums. It is just that I am putting it in
words]
As I told, the above is important only "to the persons who post the queries", and not in
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discussions. In discussions, there is KNOWLEDGE SHARING as new inputs and ideas come from BOTH SIDES. In other words 'query' is an one-way process, while 'discussion' is a two way process of knowledge sharing. Respect, co-operation, friendship, heated arguments, opinion difference and non-personal enmity (at times people stretch it to personal level as well) etc are the result of DISCUSSION METHOD, while Guru-Sishya relation or Challenger-Undertaker relation is the result of QUERRY-ANSWER METHOD. This groups are DISCUSSION FORUMS and so the first method is appreciated and expected almost by all (at least who understand the relevance of 'discussion forums' properly).
I hope you are such an individual and a worthy member of this discussion forum and not a mere query poser.
PS 2: There is nothing wrong in the Guru-Sishya or Challenger- Undertaker relations, but I don't think that is the spirit of the discussion forums. Vernalaginia: Quote
If I could put it other words, "If the earth is round, and since earth is a globe that revolves around the sun in this vast sky, sun and the solar system itself is just part of this unimaginably vast universe, then what is the importance of directions, especially in horoscope? If the concept of directions itself only exists in the limited brain of the local human being, then what is the point in casting destiny based on that?" I think this is the question that is lurking in your mind. :) I hope that I got it right. :) Unquote
Yep Sree, kind of. But also consider, if we've to restrict ourselves howsoever fleetingly - every horoscope is itself a mere snapshot of a predetermined chain of events. It applies to, among other matters, the genesis and evolution of man itself and how his genre multiplies and develops, and of those around him. My birth was predetermined, as even a nadi leaf can tell, as were other matters over my lifespan - even my potentials are as preset as the avenues available for me to harness them, if at all. Although on a macro level, the horoscope is an almost irrelevant and low- level analysis tool of determining events, its relevance itself can go awry if its inputs
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aren't either properly comprehended or given. And since astrology is all about the
sync between planets and mankind, we've also the need to understand the darned
minutiae which brings us down to earth and what on earth it is that's east, since that
determines the oh-so-touchy ascendant.
So in essence, speaking scientifically, Lagna (i.e. eastern horizon related to, or as seen
from that place) should be associated to the Angle of revolution of earth related to that
place'. I think it is clear.
Quote
In the light of this knowledge, I think the importance of your question vanishes, and
also the knowledge and sincerity of the saints who created the system of astrology
gets reflected. Now do your homework and come forward with some new idea related to
this, clarifying things for the benefit of us all. Unquote
"Do your homework" is the most difficult part for me. My question stems not with any hidden motive - I'm incapable of that but from wanting to know how to apply the concepts of our sages universally. I've seen cases where the lagna hangs around interminably at one point, jumps across rasis, runs backward... the whole lot. To try and figure things out satisfactorily is my intent. All this is a very low-level endeavor but then I can only aim as much. Quote
Please look at your short question and the length of my answer. Unquote
Very flattered by the time and effort you've given my question, Sree. I long for your ilk in Groups of my principal areas of interest (astrology doesn't much enamor me, between). You can make a classy teacher. Quote
The person who is asking (or demanding) answer should understand this and ask only relevant questions and should depict the effort he has put in that direction before expecting the answer.
Unquote
I'm nothing if not honest, and I can assure you that I've done my bit to try and get to the
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answer myself earlier, without success. I've my own obvious limitations in the brain too. Quote
the result of QUERRY-ANSWER METHOD. These groups are DISCUSSION
FORUMS and so the first method is appreciated and expected almost by all (at least
who understand the relevance of 'discussion forums' properly). Unquote
From what I've noticed, astrology has sadly the biggest set of bigots you can hope to find, worse than politicians in that respect. One little different viewpoint and it starts to get personal, and then it's an alarming wind-down from there. Quote
I hope you are such an individual and a worthy member of this discussion forum and
not a mere query poser. Unquote
I'm not because I'm incapable of holding a discussion but like I said, I'm not dishonest about that. Bharat:
The concept of destiny is in the human mind and therefore, the directions exist outside. Yat pinde Tat Brahmande.
I wouldn't define a 'being' as a horoscope. A being is much larger than the horoscope or the Ascendant that rises in it. That the being does not recognize this fact and remains identified with the "horoscope" is the error. For those who remain identified, the east is east - individual and outside. Sreenadh (To Bharat):
"Yat pinde Tat Brahmande". That is a beautiful concept that I cherish always. The unanimity of the microcosm and the macrocosm and their dace together (the rhythm) is a beautiful concept, and is the foundation of almost all the Holistic knowledge streams that originated in India! At times I feel that it is this concept, and the Sankhya philosophy that give rise to most of the knowledge streams like Astrology, Ayurveda, Vastu, Music and the like in India. Quote
I wouldn't define a 'being' as a horoscope. A being is much larger than the
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horoscope or the Ascendant that rises in it. That the being does not recognize this fact
and remains identified with the "horoscope" is the error. Unquote
I totally agree with those statements. Thanks for this very good lesson and thanks for putting it in clear words, without ambiguity, in a way anyone could understand. The 'individual' (Not 'person' - the word 'person' originated from
the Greek word 'persona' which means 'mask') is more important than horoscope, Ascendant or anything else - since he is the adobe of the presence of the divine (call it Atma' or anything else). Sreenadh (To Vernalaginia): Quote
My birth was predetermined, as even a nadi leaf can tell, as were other matters
over my lifespan - even my potentials are as preset as the avenues available for me to
harness them, if at all. Unquote
I don't think ancient astrology is that much deterministic! It gives equal weight to "destiny and will". The over importance assigned to destiny came only after the incorporation of Karma theory into astrology, I feel. Quote
And since astrology is all about the sync between planets and mankind, Unquote
No! Neither I said so nor do I agree with it. Or did I get that statement wrongly? Astrology is all about the rhythm (or wave or frame) of time that influence anything. There is no concept that the planets "Influence" or control us! But WE USE the movement of planets as a TOOL to understand the rhythm of time (or call it destiny) that influence us. Influence of destiny - yes, it is only to an extend,
since we have the free will, (or some switch execute the unknown power of chance) with us. That is why the future is not at all fully predictable - No, not even for brahma - says astrological classics. But yes, partial predictions (as far as future is concerned) and giving possible indications about the future trend are always possible.
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Quote
we've also the need to understand the darned minutiae.
Unquote
No - not necessarily. The sages ask us to predict the future based on Adhana, BT (5 or more
types of BT are approved by the classics). Future is predicted based on marriage time or
even death time! For girls, predictions are given even based on the date and time of first
menses. So what you think the generalized conclusion would be? I think it
should be the statement - "Future of an individual can be predicted based on any
moment that is closely related to him" or in other words, "any event that strongly
influence him", since such a moment can reflect the rhythm or pattern of destiny that
person would get influenced with. It is like basing our study on part of the wave to get an
idea of the future path of motion of the same wave. BT is just one of the selections in this
regard, since it is one of the most important events in the life of a human being. If BT is
unavailable, we should resort to the time of any other very important moment in that
person's life, for having an idea about his future - I feel. Yes, I can quote many evidences
and classical proofs in this regard to support the argument that saints thought in this
direction, though a statement clearly stating the same is not available.
Quote
I've seen cases where the Lagna hangs around interminably at one point, jumps across
Rasis, runs backward... the whole lot.
Unquote
You are pointing to the current state of astrology, with numerous Ayanamsas and I agree
to that. But I personally have resorted to Chandrahari Ayanamsa, it is the only one which
is based on ancient Sanskrit classics (It is based on Surya Sidhanta), and also the only
one which gives a sound and logical mathematical proof for the selection of that point (i.e.
starting point of Aries). You may not feel the same, and there would be many with a
different opinion in support of Chitra paksha Ayanamsa or the like - but it is my personal
opinion.
[Editor: Even after much encouragement the discussion didn't continued from there and the
thread broke. But later in another thread it became clear that the 'Lagna jumping across
Signs, runs backward' etc mentioned by Vernaliginia is not about Ayanamsa issues etc,
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but about 'Retrograde of Ascendant near Poles' which turned out to be and interesting and informative subject of discussion, and an area of concern]
13. Interconnections or Imaginary Inventions?
[Vinita, Sreenadh OG, Souvik Datta] Vinita:
Most probably messages like this one do not have any place in astrology forums. Between, I am very awed by the vast knowledge of members on ancient branches of astrology in this forum. I just read about Nimittas (Omens; till some time back i didn't even know what this word meant.... and even now I am not sure what it means). In the morning I do a Pranayama (breath exercise) called the "Kaaga Pranayama" (a name given to a particular type of breath exercise). I tell myself that I always stretch my imagination to absurdity - but believe it or not after finishing this Pranayama I invariably hear birds chirping. Maybe the Pranayama makes me conscious of birds. I have heard others also tell me that birds respond to this Pranayama. Now something within me tells me that this is nonsense. Or I am trying to force interconnections even when they don't even exist. But the great sages say that there are interconnections everywhere and there is unity in the universe. And there is immense uncertainty as well. But isn't uncertainty inversely proportional to the level of consciousness? Probably for a fully conscious person there is no uncertainty. Is it that the more is our lack of awareness, the more we are prisoners of our fate? And paradoxically can we be prisoners of our knowledge as well? "What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning". The observer decides how he is going to set up the measurement and this arrangement will determine, to some extent, the properties of the observed object. If the experimental arrangement is modified, the properties of the observed object will change in turn". ..or so experiments in quantum physics show...
"Modern physics. ..works in a very different framework and cannot go that far in the experience of the unity of all things. But it has made a great step towards the worldview of the Eastern mystics in atomic theory. Quantum theory has abolished the notion of fundamentally separated objects, has introduced the concept of the participator to replace that of the observer, and may even find it necessary to include the
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human consciousness in its description of the world. It has come to see the universe as an interconnected web of physical and mental relations whose parts are not only defined through their connections to the whole. To summarize the worldview emerging from atomic physics, the words of a Tantric Buddhist, seems perfectly apropos: The Buddhist does not believe in an independent or separately existing external world, into whose dynamic forces he could insert himself. The external world and his inner world are for him only two sides of the same fabric, in which the threads of all forces and of all events, of all forms of consciousness and of their objects, are woven into an inseparable net of endless, mutually conditioned relations." (From The Tao of Physics by Fritjof Capra) Against this background I was struck by the following words (of Sreenadh) - Quote
* The astrologer is like a mirror who reflects the nature and the qurrent himself.
* He is a person who see - which others can not see (Even in day to day life)
* He is a person who hear - which others can not hear (Even in day to day life) Meaning he observes with attention and understands much more from what others too see and hear. He is the wise man who is there to say what he saw and heard to others, but in a different mould, so that it would be beneficial to them.
Unquote
So it seems an astrologer has an immense social responsibility to selflessly benefit society. Is this responsibility comes after once he gains knowledge, awareness, consciousness? Are the motivations to study astrology fired by such noble objectives in our hearts? Or do we just want to have more knowledge than others?
The limited purpose of writing this was to say that knowledge of astrology cannot perhaps be complete or of any use unless it is touched by the divine. No wonder we get all kinds of distortions in the age of Kaliyuga. No wonder astrology was a preserve of the sages in the earlier times! No wonder many beautiful sutras are beautifully hidden from us! Sreenadh:
That was great!! You said: Quote
Is it that the more is our lack of awareness, the more we are prisoners of our fate? And
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paradoxically can we be prisoners of our knowledge as well? Unquote
I would love say a YES to both that questions, but that is the opinion of me, an individual. The society can never come in agreement with it, but yes some individuals who share the same experience can. Or in other words, I am agreeing to your words but don't think that the mass will understand or share the same thoughts. It is impossible by default, since only one level of consciousness/awareness (collective consciousness) is known to all and the individual experience of consciousness/awareness is too subjective. Quote
So it seems an astrologer has an immense social responsibility to selflessly benefit
society. Is this responsibility comes after once he gains knowledge, awareness,
consciousness? Unquote
I feel there is an amendment. Yes, an astrologer has immense social responsibilities to selflessly benefit society. But in the next line I fear you are mixing up things. Quote
Is this responsibility comes after once he gains knowledge, awareness,
consciousness? Unquote
Gaining knowledge is one thing - anyone who is ready to study/learn can acquire knowledge. Astrologers, just like the students of any other subject, are also supposed to gain knowledge. Now comes, "awareness, consciousness". Just for the sake of simplicity I am taking them as same. The enlightened person is the fully aware and fully conscious person. And of course such enlightened Rishis are the creators of this system. But for us, it is not possible that we become enlightened and then only try to use this system of knowledge. Although Siva is everywhere realizing that is not an easy task. So there should be a system that tries to generate, or train the students astrology in such a way that, with the study, with the observation methods and examples, the consciousness level and the awareness of the students should improve. The gurus thought; even if the astrologer is not dynamic and truly aware, let us give him a system that at
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least helps him in making use of our awareness (i.e. The awareness of those ancient gurus about the then present world, society, nature, animals etc - who wrote those Nimitt texts). But it is true that awareness, being dynamic, loss its validity soon, when converted to stiff (fixed and dead) laws of the book. So we should (and is supposed to) try to collect it from the world around by direct observation rather than resorting to ancient astrological texts in such issues. But from ancient astrological texts on omens we can collect the guiding principles. So what I want to say is that the astrologer is "not supposed to benefit society ONCE he gains knowledge, awareness, consciousness", but "he is supposed to improve his awareness/consciousness (without even he himself knowing it) when he is collecting and practicing the knowledge of astrology. Yes, that will benefit the society, and the astrologer as well is supposed to put efforts in these directions - i.e. 1) Benefiting society 2) Improving awareness/consciousness". But even if he does not do it - it happens by default, if he is a true student of astrology!! That is how the system is designed!
Souvik Datta (to Vinita):
As usual thought-provoking. Quote
The limited purpose of writing this was to say that knowledge of astrology cannot perhaps be complete or of any use unless it is touched by the divine. Unquote
Isn't divinity not in you? Isn't Shiva in you? Are you not Shiva? Am I not Shiva? Yes, what is left is realizing it.
Vinita:
Yes dear Souvik, you are Siva, I am Siva, everyone is Siva; but are we really conscious of this? Why should any questions /doubts arise? Are these questions / doubts not a measure of the distance from "realizing" Siva?
Sreenadh:
Thanks for restating the importance of the teaching of vinita ji: Quote
The limited purpose of writing this was to say that knowledge of astrology cannot perhaps be complete or of any use unless it is touched by the divine.
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Unquote
Yes, I too completely agree with that statement. This "divine" he speaks about, I think, is
"the rhythm", "the oneness", or "the inter connectedness" we are having with the
universe. Yes, realizing it even to limited extends is very very important in astrology. Let
us not confuse it with "the ultimate realizing of the divine", i.e.
Enlightenment, the realizing of Siva.
Vinita:
You said "teaching of vinita ji". Should I laugh out loud or feel alarmed? Yes, I must be sounding very preachy. But most of the time it is an internal dialogue. Not directed at anyone in particular. Just thinking aloud. Trying to make sense of things. Miserably failing most of the time. But the messages on the forum do provide mental stimulation.
Sreenadh:
It is a totally friendly statement that emerged from love and reverence. We are all students through out our life, who knows even before taking this body we were learning and for sure even after death for the non destroyed components of the body this learning may continue - is it that learning is another name for change and adaptation? Or is it the urge of the soul to be one with the divine reflected in another way? Yes we are all students, and we all become the teachers of each other at times. Quote
But most of the time it is an internal dialogue. Not directed at anyone in particular. Just thinking aloud. Trying to make sense of things. Unquote
In India, there is a concept that Siva is the param guru (supreme teacher), and also that Siva is there within everyone. No one can be our guru but only the divine within. To put it in another way, "Teachers can not teach anything, but only help learning"!! It is only we ourselves can teach ourselves! So expressing a true internal dialogue, is one of the best method of teaching, since then the divine makes its presents there, in the midst of the free flowing thought. The prayer of every true learner is - "Madeeya hridayakase chidanamda mayo guru Udetu satatam samyagajnchana timiraruna"
Meaning, May the divine guru rise with in me in the inner sky, like the sun in whose presence darkness disappears. So if not a true internal dialogue revealing the presence of
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divine within words, if that is not teaching by the true guru, then what is? I think this
explains the use of the words - "the teaching of vinita ji". ;)
PS: The true teacher is the person who is true to himself in learning.
Vinita:
Thank You, Sreenadh for your kind words. I will remember, "we are all students, and we
all become the teachers of each other at times."
SAHANAVAVATU....
14. Astrological Reading vs Fate and Freewill
[Rama Vootala, Sreenadh OG]
Rama Vootala:
When any native consults an astrologer, how sure can the astrologer /native be of the
outcome that astrologer predicts? I ask this question as anyone who sees an astrologer is
not sure of the outcome until the event happens. So it is as good as waiting for the event
itself to unfold the result.
Ex: Can I start preparing to go abroad the day astrologer tells me that I would go
abroad in a few months?
One of a known native was told by an reputed astrologer that he would get back to his good
financial status that he enjoyed before. That made him quite happy and he waited for the
time to see that nothing happened. If 80% success in prediction cannot spell which 80%,
isn't that 100% failure? Where does astrology stand with respect to karma?
Again to take an example, in west (general cases) if someone is divorced they might not
attach much of value and might get into another relation. Whereas for someone who
believes in astrology he/she would have to go thru the pain of finding out why it happened
and any realization that a weak planet in their 7/8 house can always make him /her more
insecure.
Sreenadh:
Quote
When any native consults an astrologer, how sure can the astrologer / native be of the
outcome that astrologer predicts?
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Ill
Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006 Unquote
No surety! It is a risk the native is taking! For the astrologer as well, (except his belief in the words of the Rishis and the belief in the methods he follow), the uncertainty remains, till the event reveals itself! He would be happy, if the prediction turns true, and would be sad and try to rectify his methods if the prediction fails. Quote
So it is as good as waiting for the event itself to unfold the result. Unquote
That is your personal opinion. You said: Quote
If 80% success in prediction cannot spell which 80%, isn't that 100% failure? Unquote
Do you know one cute thing - percentage mathematics is almost always used now a day while talking with things we are not at all sure off! Just watch some conversations and you will see the truth of this statement. So for the wise, except in mathematics and statistics it is better to avoid the 100% mathematics. But people use it universally even while talking about things they don't know a bit - because then it would sound authentic! For a prediction how you are going to calculate the percentage?! I don't know how to do it! Of course we can mark some predictions as success and some as failures, and going by the statistical methods we can say classify that -
1) x % of predictions where success.
2) y % of predictions failed
3) z % of predictions undeterminable (i.e whether success or failure)
But how to determine the percentage of a single prediction? It sounds absurd, and is used by persons who just want to sound authentic, and does not know where to use the percentage mathematics! (Let it be astrologers or anybody else) Are they providing this percentage mathematics after doing some statistical analysis - No, not at all. Look at the politicians, the businessman, or even the common man, they are all now talking about percentage! You asked: Quote
Where does astrology stand with respect to karma?
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Unquote
It is pretty difficult question to answer, due to several reasons. First I should ask you to clarify by the word Karma you mean Karma (Actions of an individual) or Karma theory (that binds everything with karma and speaks about past birth, future birth etc and also about Prarabtha Karma etc). If if is assured that you are speaking about Karma theory and its relation to astrology, then also this question is difficult to answer for me, due to the following reasons:
1) I am no man to authentically speak about karma theory as i know nothing about my or anybody else past birth and future birth.
2) I can speak something only on the basis of the books I read, but that cannot be assured truth coming to the concept of Karma and its results.
3) Ancient astrological classics speak nothing about the association of Karma theory with astrology.
4) But in the texts probably after the period of Mihira (6th century) speak about Karma and Karma theory as if it is part of astrology.
5) As far as I am concerned I am doubtful about the importance of Karma theory in astrology and yet to reach any conclusion. Belief in Karma theory demands the belief in Past and Previous births, which I find difficult to accept completely. (It is a personal opinion and I don't want to argue anything about it to anyone) But yes, this previous birth concept finds strong grounds in ancient Indian literature, though we can be doubtful about its existence in Veda, Upanishads, and ancient astrological texts.
6) Karma theory finds strong support by a very large number of astrologers now a day though and that kind of determinism is against optimism, free will, and positive thinking. I will get less support or may be no support if I say anything against Karma theory. Also, I have authority neither to accept nor to deny it.
Due to all these I find that I am an improper person to talk about Karma. It is better to be satisfied with and talk about the little astrology we know - that is my personal view. Or in other words, it is not good to talk or preach about the things we don't know - that is not sincerity - so I don't want to do that. There would be others who would like to discuss such things.
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Belief/Non-belief in Karma (or should I say any belief?), Following of Upasana
methods, Meditation etc are personal things I feel - which should not be discussed in
public. It will be something like a journalistic report of Meditation - which does not
convey much about the reality. Beliefs and practices that direct subjective experience is
one thing, and discussion of the theoretical aspect of the belief systems and
descriptions of the practices that would give direct subjective experience is another
thing. Yes, "discussion of the theoretical aspect of the belief systems and descriptions of
the practices that would give direct subjective experience" can be done in any public
forum - but not the questioning of it (that makes it journalistic, as told earlier, i.e.
Journalistic validation of a purely subjective and personal thing - and that would surely
miss the essence of that practice and the personal experience it gives to its follower).
In essence if the Karma discussion follows, and if it turns in the first direction, then
I will keep away from it, and if it is in the second direction I may put forward some
inputs as well.
Rama Vootala:
I have a basic question - What is the purpose of astrology?
Quote
3) Ancient astrological classics speaks nothing about the association of Karma theory with astrology.
4) But in the texts probably after the period of Mihira (6th century) speak about Karma and Karma theory as if it is part of astrology.
Unquote
Oh, is that true? Could you let me know which is the first known book on astrology? Is it not BPHS? Do we have any mentions of astrology / astrologers in Ramayana / Mahabharat? When did people start taking astrology seriously, as divine subject? and as mundane subject? (for predictions, etc..) Thanks for your patient reply. Sreenadh: Quote
I have a basic question - What is the purpose of astrology? Unquote
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As far as I know:
1) It is to help the weak minds; by the ones who have a strong will using all the tools they can collect and being sincere to the extreme possible extend to themselves.
2) It is (a tool) to the search of the unknown (here future and destiny)- directed by quest for knowledge.
3) It is (a tool) to guide the society, when they find it difficult to pull along.
4) Its main purpose is to know the trend of future and modify and improve our will and efforts in such a way to reap the maximum reward from the evolving situations created by destiny, will and environment.
5) (Yes, you can extend this list)
Quote
Could you let me know which is the first known book on astrology? Is it not BPHS? Unquote No. It is not. It is -
As per Arsha school - Skanda Hora [It was also known as Jyotishmati Upanishad]
As per Jain school - Garga Hora (Garga leaned this knowledge from Brahma it is said. Is there a text by Brahma for this school of thought, before Garga? I don't know)
As per Yavana school of thought - May be Yavaneswara Hora. (Yavaneswara leaned this knowledge from Prajapati Brahma it is said. Is there a text by Prajapati Brahma for this school of thought, before Yavaneswara? I don't know)
It is only that the oldest text (I won't say the oldest reference) available in North India is BPHS. So BPHS is NOT the oldest book on astrology. Quote
Do we have any mentions of astrology / astrologers in Ramayana /Mahabharat? Unquote
Yes, we have, and in plenty. But nowhere in Ramayana and Mahabharat the Signs are mentioned (except in a lone quote in Ramayana). It seems that only Stellar astrology (Nakshatra Chakra) was prevalent on those days. But can't be sure. It needs more
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research to reach a conclusion. But you forgot one thing. The Vedas and possibly the Agamas (Tantric texts, or should I say the Tantric tradition) are older than the Epics. In Vedas we could find the clear Sayana (Tropical Zodiac) and Nirayana (Sidereal Zodiac) classification. But it seems that the Vedas gave more importance to Sayana system - but here also, more research is necessary. The Tantric tradition seems to gave more importance to Nirayana system, and associate and correlate astrology with Yoga system. [More research necessary] Quote
When did people start taking astrology seriously, as divine subject? and as
mundane subject? (for predictions, etc..) Unquote
From the Vedic period itself for sure. Or may be far before that from the Sindhu- Sarasvati civilization period itself - Many argue that it followed Tantric tradition. [More research necessary] Rama Vootala: Quote
1) It is to help the weak minds; by the ones who have a strong will using all the tools
they can collect and being sincere to the extreme possible extend to themselves. Unquote
Weak minds? That makes us all inferior. Quote
Jain school - Do you have any idea of approximate time period, like how many thousand years before was this?
Is astrology Vedic? Meaning, is the Vedic astrology, what we follow now, the right term? Quote
From the Vedic period itself for sure. Or may be far before that from the Sindhu-
Sarasvati civilization period itself - Many argue that it followed Tantric Tradition.
[More research necessary] Unquote
Was the before Indus valley? Let me google and see what this civilization is all about, and if you have time please let me know of it.
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So, which is the system Kerala astrologers follow mostly? Parasara / Jaimini / or the
others (I don't mean to belittle others, I only know of Parasara and Jaimini). Thanks for
your patient long replies.
Sreenadh:
Quote
Weak minds? That makes us all inferior. Unquote
Anybody who depends TOO MUCH on astrology to face the hardships of life is a weak mind. If you are ready to face what may come - good or bad - why one should need astrology? Yes, it can be a tool of help, like a torch. (If used properly, and if the predictions are cross-verified, and dependable. May be judged from the previous experience of others) If I am ready to fall or ready to face the uncertainty, why you should need the torch? But the common mass if really afraid
of the uncertainty - and ran after astrologers. The strong minds, considered astrology valid, but does not depend TOO MUCH on it and is ready to face what may come. :) The weak is always not inferior - don't you heard the Chinese proverb that softly flowing water cause corruption even to the hardest rocks? ;) I would ask everybody to take astrology lightly and in an inquisitive spirit. Even if there is 1% uncertainty that is important, right? It is uncertainty that makes life beautiful; it is uncertainty is that makes will possible. (If you compare will and destiny). Society always needs some psychological guidance - and if take that responsibility, is it not necessary that you should equip yourself with all the necessary tools? That is why the sincere astrologer is forced to learn many subjects like - psychology, details of rituals, morals and methods of people in the country he is living in, environment, astrology, body language, study of nature and what note. He is supposed to improve his knowledge continuously, and keep his vigor always and live here and now! Yes, to the astrologers who take study and practice of astrology seriously, it finally becomes a responsibility than a game that can be used light heartedly. Because they are interacting with the life of people. Alas who will tell this fools more to depend on their efforts and capabilities, rather than wait for the fate to bring all the luck of the world to them! Even if we tell, they won't accept! As per Yanjchavalkaya Fate and Will are equally important, and is like the 2 wheels of a chariot. With only one wheel,
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where can it go? If a student goes for exam without studying since the astrologer said that his fate is good and he is sure to pass - will he pass? If a student goes to exam after studying almost everything, putting in his strong
will, but if the fate was against and most of the questions where from the areas he left out - will he pass? If the student is learning well putting in his full efforts (executing will) and if the questions where all from the areas he studied well (fate favored him) then he secures the maximum marks! Astrology is all about the study of the 50% - the fate part, and tells you about its trend - that is all to it. And you have the other part with you, the will - execute it or not it is up to you! Those who understands it, knows how to use and astrology, and also how to ignore it when you are ready to face what may come. This is what I meant. Quote
Jain school - Do you have any idea of approximate time period, like how many
thousand years before was this? Unquote
Jain religion started with Rishabha and in which the 24th Teerthankara was Varthamana Mahaveera. Rishabha Deva is mentioned in Vedas. Jain religion, starts from Rishabha Deva, and Jain school of astrological thought existed even in the period of Skanda Hora (Jyotishmati Upanishad). That means it should be near to or just after the Vedic period. Quote
Is astrology Vedic? Meaning, is the Vedic astrology, what we follow now, the right
term? Unquote
Calling astrology Vedic would be a wrong terminology - since you won't find much astrology in Vedas. But yes, the names of months such as Madhu, Madhava etc and the name of Nakshatras and stars, Division of stellar zodiac into Sayana and Nirayana, Horoscope prediction related to the birth in Moola star, Muhurta etc you will find in Vedas. You won't find signs like Aries, Taurus etc mentioned in Vedas, neither the house system nor Dasas are mentioned in Vedas which forms the basis for today's astrology. Further it seems that Vedic Rishis gave importance to Tropical calendar and
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Nakshatra Chakra. Then who where the people who preserved Sidereal calendar and Rasi Chakra - it seems that it was Tantric. The conflict and competition between Tropical and Sidereal calendar systems (Sayana and Nirayana, Devas and Asuras, Vedic and Tantric, Nigama and Agama) was there for long. We may know more about it more latter. Even coming to Mahabharata even though you can find astrology, you cannot find astrology in today's form or the mention of Rasis. But we know that the Skanda hora (Jyotishmati Upanishad) and the texts like Garga hora are very ancient. If the astrology of Veda, or Epic is not of today's mould then who you are going to call today's astrology Vedic? Even it cannot be sure that astrology originated from Vedas alone! As I mentioned earlier there could be several streams - Vedic, Tantric, or Jain. Somebody would like to accept the mention of Vedic and Tantric but not Jain. But if we look back into history, Rishabha Deva was there even in Vedic period, and ask any North Indian astrologer he will mention Surya Prajnchapti, and Chandra Prajnchapti and will mention Rishiputra as the author. Who is Rishiputra - he is the son of Garga Rishi who wrote Garga hora. I fail to understand why the modern historians for astrology ignore Garga while mentioning Surya Prajchapti and Chandra Prajnchapti as Jain contribution to astrology. Quote
From the Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization period itself- was it before Indus valley? Unquote
They are the same. Since this civilization existed in the banks of the rivers Sindhu and Sarasvati Rivers, it is better to call it Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization than Indus valley civilization. ;) That is the name used now a day. Quote
So, which is the system kerala astrologers follow mostly? Parasara /
Jaimini / or the others Unquote
You could term it Arsha system or Sanatana system of astrology. It starts with Skanda Hora of Skanda Deva. The ancient texts that are considered of this stream are Skanda Hora, Brihat Prajapatyam, Leghu Prajapatyam, Vasishta Hora, Kousika Hora, Saunaka Hora etc. And the Gurus Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, Viswamitra, Saunaka etc. In the
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period of Varaha Mihira (550 AD), it absorbed Yavana system to a small extend. (Caused by Mihira). Kerala astrologers accepted it as a mistake, and they still gave value to the Arsha (or Sanatana) stream only. Garga was appreciated more than Parasara, and Yavana was not ignored. They (ancient Kerala astrologers) never knew much about Jaimini nor give much importance to it. So in essence Kerala astrologers does not follow Parasara system or Jaimini system, and not much bothered about it, since they have another many vast storehouse of astrological knowledge to look into.
1) The Arsha (or Sanatana) system they followed.
2) The Jain school (Garga Hora) and the knowledge it provided.
3) The Yavana school (Yavaneswara, Sphujidhwaja, Meenaraja) and the knowledge it provided.
If you want to ignore all this ancient and locate the Acharya in AD then, you should better term the Kerala school or system of astrology as the "Mihira School" or better "Mihira- Aryabhatta School" since in Siddhantic astronomy they valued Aryabhata and in astrology Mihira and the ancient Rishis. But yes, one thing we should accept. The Vimsottari Dasa system suggested by Parasara later became a very well appreciated favored Dasa system, which was used by almost all. So we should say that the Kerala system was never against Parasara as well, though it does not use many of his concepts that were not at all mentioned by Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, Viswamitra and Garga. Many of Parasara's ideas are entirely different from the common and well- appreciated stream of astrology taught by these Rishis, and that caused the alienation of Parasara. Same with Jaimini. His concepts where entirely different from the well- accepted common stream of astrology - further he put everything in to sutras and not in slokas! Keralites just ignored Jaimini!!! This is what I know about the History of astrology followed or preserved in Kerala. Rama Vootala: Quote
As per Yanjchavalkaya Fate and Will are equally important, and is like the 2
wheels of a chariot. With only one wheel, where can it go? Unquote That's a very good example. I think together they make an event 100% and we never
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know the composition. So it's better we always give 100% of will. Fate surely would
give it's 100%.
In a big picture, what is different between Kerala astrology and BPHS / Jaimini?
Dont Kerala astrologers follow karakas (atma, amatya, etc..) and are the yogas
different (like guru chandala, mahapurusha, gaja kesari,etc)?
Do you look at varga charts like dasamsa, saptamsa, etc? or is it Rasi, Bhava, Graha,
Rasi-bhava, Rasi-Graha etc and other combinations and that too only in Rasi and
Navamsa charts?
Sreenadh:
Quote
That's a very good example. I think together they make an event 100% and we never know the composition. So it's better we always give 100% of will. Fate surely would give it's 100%.
Unquote
Yes, for sure. There is an interesting guess mathematics. Let possibility of an event be
100%. Of this Destiny = 50% (Pre-defined) Will = 50% (Supposed to be non- predefined)
But the tendency to execute will is pre-defined! So give it 25%. That means in the
normal situation we will get 25% out put from will only. The remaining 25% is the pure
chance - that depends on the execution of the first 25% and environment. Allow a normal
10% to it.
When we are trying to predict the first 50%; If we make even a 30% accurate
prediction, then, we get a result -
30% + 25% + 10% = 65% Accurate prediction!
If the prediction (for destiny part) is 40% then we get -
40% + 25% + 10% = 75% Accurate prediction!
Even if we make a normal 50% prediction for a normal effort putting person, then too, we
get-
25% + 25% +10% = 60% Accurate prediction! See
how our work becomes simplified! ! !
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Lesson to learn: Don't try to make accurate predictions, for persons with atleast
normal will. Because then you have to convert all that plus 10 % to minus 10% at least.
Don't extend it too much. It is just guess mathematics, without any statistical basis. Just
having some mathematics fun.
Quote
In a big picture, what is different between Kerala astrology and BPHS / Jaimini? Don't Kerala astrologers follow karakas (atma, amatya, etc..) and are the yogas different (like guru chandala, mahapurusha, gaja kesari, etc)? Do you look at varga charts like Dasamsa, Saptamsa, etc? or is it Rasi, Bhava, Graha, Rasi-Bhava, Rasi- Graha, etc. and other combinations and that too only in Rasi and Navamsa charts?
Unquote
All big questions - Can't be answered fully in a single mail. So I give a brief
description only.
1) In a big picture, what is different between Kerala astrology and BPHS / Jaimini?
Read Mihira, Parasara & Jaimini - you will see the difference. Usually what ever there in common is part of the Arsha stream, the remaining are new inventions (or peculiar traditions) that are usually ignored.
2) Don't Kerala astrologers follow karakas (atma, amatya, etc..) and are the yogas different (like guru chandala, mahapurusha, gaja kesari,etc)?
Yes, All karakas and 'special yogas' you mentioned are there. But nobody would be calculating an 'Atma karaka' for a chart (that is Parasara system) - Sun is atma karaka by natural significance.
3) Do you look at varga charts like Dasamsa, Saptamsa, etc?
There is NO VARGA CHARTS, but all Vargas like Hora, Drekkana, Navamsa etc are considered. While predicting with 'considering' Navamsa as well, Navamsa are written outside the Rasi chart near to relevant signs (similar to the 'Mixed 2 Vargas' style in JHora) and predictions given based on that. In other words Rasi chart and Navamsa Varga are super-imposed and predictions are based on that. Drishti is considered only in Rasi chart. This same style of prediction applies to all other Vargas. I will later explain to you with examples, and will explain how the systems differ. Quote
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Or is it Rasi, Bhava, Graha, Rasi-Bhava, Rasi-Graha, etc and other combinations
Unquote
Don't confuse the fundamental Yogas (mixing of significance methods) in Astrology, and
the 'Special Yogas' you mention about. These 2 stands in 2 different levels of thinking.
There could be only 7 fundamental Yogas (mixing methods/combinations), but there
could be thousands of special yogas. Remember all these thousands of special yogas
also falls into the basic 7 fundamental Yogas (combinations/mixing methods). The
translation of the word Yoga (which really means combination) as
'mixing methods' is not proper - but I think it will help you to grasp the concept.
Rama Vootala:
I found a similar article that I liked and wanted to share with you all.http://www.advaita-
vedanta.org/articles/The Riddle of Fate and Free. htm Sreenadh:
That was a good article. Thanks for providing the link. [Editor: The thread ended. Even though some specialties of Kerala astrology got mentioned, at the end it seems that the major point got discussed and found an agreement is the correlation of Fate and Freewill with astrology]
15. About Prasna - Kerala style
[Kannan, Sreenadh OG, Madhu Nair, Sree Kumar] Kannan:
Kindly tell me about the procedure of Prasna, how it is done in Kerala. Kindly also tell me about the use of Kavadi (shells) in Prasna and also about the concept of Blocking of Arudha.
Concept of Arudha as per Kerala tradition
Sreenadh: Quote
Kindly tell me about the procedure of Prasna, how it is done in Kerala. Unquote
What kind of Prasna you mean? If in Kerala style - Normal Prasna, Tamboola Prasna, Ashtamangala Prasna etc. Several types of Prasna are there. About which one you are
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asking? Please clarify. Quote
Kindly also tell me about the use of Kavadi (shells) in Prasna Unquote
Kavadi is one of the main tools used by Kerala astrologers from ancient period. Yes, it is still used by most of the Kerala astrologers. It is used for two purposes.
1) For getting the Arudha (It is different from the BPHS-Jaimini Arudha concept)
2) For doing the mathematical calculations.
I will describe the first. As per Krishneeyam 2 types of Zodiacs are considered.
1) The Chara Chakra (Moving Zodiac) that is there in the sky.
2) The Sthira Chakra (Fixed Zodiac) that is imagined to be present around the astrologer.
A super imposition of the two is used in Prasna. The sign (in the zodiac around the astrologer) in which the qurrent is standing (or sitting) is considered as the Arudha. [Aaroodhatwal prischakena rasiraroodhamuchyate. Meaning it is because the qurrent is standing on that sign it is called Arudha]. It is known as "Sthityarudha". If the "Sthityarudha" is not known then, the astrologer will ask the qurrent to place a coin (In Ashtamangala Prasna, golden coin) on any of the signs of the Rasi Chakra that is drawn in front of the astrologer.
Usually this (golden) coin is mixed with flowers and rice and is given in the hand of the qurrent and the astrologer asks him to place it any of the signs in Rasi Chakra. If "Sthityarudha" is not known, then this sign is taken as "Arudha". This is the usual procedure followed. This usually known as "Swarnarudha", the Arudha got with placing of gold. If multiple questions are there, or if the astrologer need to answer temporary questions, then he puts his hand over the 108 shells he used to keep along with, recites 'namaH sivaya' (usually for 108 times), recites the other usual mantras he recites, and takes a handful of Kavadi (shells). Then he divides it will 12 and the reminder no, would be taken to indicate a sign, and that sign is considered as Arudha. For example if the astrologer happened to take 58 shells in his hand, then 61/12 gives 1 as the remainder and then Aries is taken as the Arudha. This is one use of Kavadi (shells). Arudha is given more importance than Prasna, since it is said in Prasnamarga
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that, "Tasmin samyag parijchate sarvam tenaiva chintyatam". Meaning, if the
astrologer knows the Arudha then everything can be predicted with it. This statement is
applicable to Sthityarudha, Swarnarudha, or Arudha.
Quote
Also about the concept of Blocking of Arudha
Unquote
Blocking of Arudha is a concept that is used to validate the relationship between
Arudha and Lagna at the time of Prasna. If the Lagna is in the 2-4-6-8-10-12 houses
from Arudha, then it is said that 'Arudha is blocked' (Arudha Vedha). It is said that if
the Arudha is blocked (by Lagna) then the Prasna will not indicate the clear and
correct remedies that should be undertaken, and the Prasna will not give fruitful results
and that the exact reason for the troubles and turbulences encountered by the qurrent in
life won't be revealed by that Prasna. If the Arudha is blocked in a Prasna, then the
astrologer immediately used to suggest some remedies, before proceeding with Prasna. It
is believed that, Arudha is blocked -
For 2nd house - Due to Anger of Deities (Deva Kopa)
For 4th house - Due to Anger of Family god (Dharma Deva) For
6th house - Due to the activities of Enemies (Satru Badha) For
8th house - Due to Anger of Ancestors (Pitr Kopa)
For 12th house - Due to Anger of bad spirits (Preta kopa)
These are the views given in texts like 'Deva prasna muktavali'. Even if Arudha is
blocked Prasna would continue, but it would be informed to the qurrent that all his
troubles wouldn't be cured completely, since the Prasna itself indicates that locating
the exact reason for problems and remedies would be difficult in such situation.
Madhu Nair:
The cowries also known "Kavadis" are 108 in number. Firstly, the cowries are
cleansed in pure water. Then it is immersed in "Cow's urine" for a day. Then it is kept in
"Panchagavya" (An Ayurvedic preparation available in all Ayurvedic medical
outlets of Kerala, made out from five products, obtained from cow) for couple of days.
Subsequently, it is kept in tender coconut water for a day. Again in rose water for
another day. Then touching these Cowries, Ganesha Gayatri is chanted minimum of
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1008 (In earlier times, 24,000) in the early hours of the day. After that, touching the
cowries, Dakshinamurthy Mantra (some go for Divine Panchakshari) is chanted 1008
times. On an auspicious Muhurta, when Jupiter is powerful and well placed from the
Ascendant, this is handed over to the disciple by the preceptor.
The method of analysis
When a qurrent approach the astrologer, after praying to Lord Ganesha and Ishta
Devata, and prayer to Almighty citing the name Nakshatra and age of the qurrent, is
made with a request to grant the correct Ascendant that will reflect the qurrent past,
present and future. A handful of cowries are taken. Expunging the multiples of 12, the
remaining is taken as the "Arudha". The rising sign is technically called "Udaya
Lagna". A comparison is made between the Arudha and the rising sign. While
conducting the Prasna, the Astrologer will carefully notice the Omens technically
called "Nimittas". If the Arudha is in 6-8-12 from rising sign, it is generally believed,
the Prasna is hindered (Blocked). Exceptions are there. Say, if rising is Taurus and
Arudha is Libra, there is no hindrance to Prasna; reason is both these signs are owned
by one and the same planet, that is, Venus.
Between - All these cawri purifying, and allied affairs are things of the past. It is
now Westerners, who are showing real interest in such things.
Blocking of Arudha
Kannan:
Many thanks for your explanations. One more query, Is Jupiter's position from
Arudha also consider for Blocking/hindrance to Arudha. Also what if the Arudha is
blocked? How to proceed next? Sreenadh:
Jupiter has nothing to do with this 'Not the popular' concept of 'Blocking of
Aroodha'. If Mo is 6-8-12 from Ju, then it is a popular yoga in astrology known as
'Sakata Yoga'. Is it that, the one that is confusing you?
Quote
Also what if the Arudha is blocked? How to proceed next?
Unquote
Answer already given. "Suggest the remedies and proceed with the Prasna".
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Kannan:
I was asking about Jupiter basis my talks with an astrologer some time back. That day I
was sitting with the astrologer for 2-3 hours, during that time he was conducting Prashna
for many clients (at his place of work). I felt Jupiter's position much important in
Prashna as I heard during that time, statements like 'Jupiter is hiding',
'God's grace is not there' etc basis Jupiter's positioning from Arudha. May be I
misunderstood that with blocking.
Sreenadh:
Quote
Statements like 'Jupiter is hiding', 'God's grace is not there' etc basis Jupiter's
positioning from Arudha. Unquote
Yes, while considering "Daivanukoolya" (God's grace) Jupiter is considered and the
astrologer was right on that regard. Quote
Maybe I misunderstood that with blocking. Unquote Yes, you did. Madhu Nair (to Kannan):
No matter where Jupiter is, blocking is considered with respect to Arudha and Rising Sign relation (2/12, 6/8) only. Earlier, the astrologers use to abandon the Prasna altogether. The qurrent is asked to meet the Astrologer on another day. If Prasna is blocked, the remedial measures fails to work. It is also an indication of adverse time ahead for the qurrent. Personally, based on real life experience, I feel such a directive is quite unwarranted. I will explain. Often the Arudha reflects the current situation of the person posing the question. The rising sign or Udaya Lagna (Asc) apparently indicates the future. A Shashtashtama (6/ 8) indicates, Disease, Debts, Litigation, Mental Anguish, Insult / loss of reputation, scandals etc and Dwir-dwadasa (2/12) between these two is a pointer towards Change of residence/station, foreign travel, expenses, trouble from secret enemies, problems to ones children, in relevant cases imprisonment, raid in ones business establishment/ residence etc. As I mentioned in my previous message, these are general
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statements, and should not be taken literally without considering the Prasna chart as a whole. Always remember the entire Kerala Prasna branch revolves around two things
1) Gulika (Note: should be calculated as per Uttara Kalamrita directive and not BPHS) There exist a difference of about 20* between these two.
2) Badha Sthanas (Houses of harm): Two meanings are accorded to Badha Sthanas viz (a) Obstruction (b) To be possessed
The second meaning is widely applied (And often abused or misused) by professional
Keralite astrologers. [Editor: The discussion sidetracked here with Sreenadh disagreeing to arguments related to Gulika and Badhaka Sthana presented by Madhu Nair]
Use of Gulika and Bahadaka Sthana in Kerala astrology
Sreenadh: Quote
Always remember the entire Kerala Prasna branch revolves around two things
1) Gulika (Note: should be calculated as per Uttara Kalamrita directive and not BPHS) There exist a difference of about 20* between these two.
2) Badha Sthanas (Houses of harm): Two meanings are accorded to Badha Sthanas viz
(a) Obstruction (b) To be possessed Unquote
I would differ with both the points with pleasure - since they can direct the research in new directions. [I] Gulika
Gulika and Mandi are widely confused concepts. Though later they become synonyms, as per ancient astrology they are different. BPHS, Uttarakalamrita, Phaladeepika, Madhaveeyam Prasnasaram etc supports this argument. Uttara kalamrita "separately gives" the methods to calculate them, and calls them as "two sons of Saturn. We should understand this point clearly. So as per ancient terminology -
Gulika- The beginning point of Yama assigned to Saturn (BPHS, Gulikolpatti) Mandi - The end point of complete Muhurta within the Yama assigned to Saturn.
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(Uttara kalamrita, Phaladeepika etc)
As you said, there is about 20* difference between the two, and the one with the
ancient name 'Mandi' is popular in Kerala, especially in Prasna. In horoscope Gulika is
more important and should be considered since it helps birth time rectification! Use of
Gulika for BT rectification is supported by many acharyas, but Mandi cannot be and
should not be used for this purpose. Prasna Ratna, Prasna Sangraha, Jataka Parijata
and Prasna sara unanimously
states that -
"The Lagna would be in the trines of Gulika or Gulika Navamsa"! But the same or
similar opinion is not available concerning Mandi.
I was totally confused the unanimity the books are showing in this regard, and is of the
opinion that "it should be tested/validated". If it proved to be true we can accept it, or
discard it. But yes this necessitates that we should treat Gulika and Mandi separately. Yes,
I agree that after the period of Phaladeepika, especially in and after the period of
Prasnamarga, considering these 2 words as synonyms is present. Again, I stated all these
because -
1) To initiate some research in use of Gulika in BT rectification.
2) "Calculation of Gulika as per Uttara Kalamrita" - But in Uttara kalamrita both
Gulika and Mandi are mentioned, but yes it gives only the calculation method for Mandi. [It might be that the use of the word "Mandaja' (Son of Sa) to mention both of them, that started causing the confusion to all]. Yes, I know that you know this difference, and was just following the Prasnamarga style of using these names as synonyms, but I just took it as a chance to present the 1st point.
[II] Badhakastana
Prasnamarga mentions it as the last step only, while considering the divine obstacles only.
Problems could be caused by two reasons - Worldly or Devine. (Yes, 'divine' could mean 'caused by bad spirits' or caused by 'gods' in this context)
In the first part Prasnamarga does not use the concept of Badhaka Sthana while considering the first but only on the second! Also except in Prasna, the ancient classics on astrology, Varaha Hora or Rishi Horas before that DOES NOT mention Badhaka Sthana.
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We do not have much evidence to support the use of Badhaka Sthana in Jataka (horoscope).
There are many statements that say that the rules for Jataka () can be used in Prasna as well,
but there is "no statement" which says that the rules of Prasna can be used in Jataka! So,
Even though I would agree with your views on to an extend as far as Prasna is concerned,
would like to differ while talking about Jataka.
Madhu Nair:
What I have written to Kannan is what we really see or experience in Keralite
astrological parlance. Almost all astrologers of repute in Kerala are one way or the other
found to be following this. You see, the modern techniques like KP etc have very few
followers in Kerala, and most of the astrologers still rely on the Cowries. Recently in a
public forum (Kerala) when I tried to make a case with Gulika, calculated as per
BPHS, in Parasara's light ultimate software, the elderly astrologers raised a big hue and
cry. They won't accept or agree with BPHS calculations. What you say might be the
Truth but in Kerala it will certainly cause stiff opposition from Traditional astrologers
who are used only to UK calculation, and will never accept that they are erroneously
considering Mandi as Gulika
Sreenadh:
Quote
Recently in a public forum (Kerala) when I tried to make a case with Gulika,
calculated as per BPHS, in Parasara light ultimate software, the elderly astrologers
raised a big hue and cry. They won't accept or agree with BPHS calculations. What you
say might be the Truth but in Kerala it will certainly cause stiff opposition from
Traditional astrologers who are used only to UK calculation, and will never accept that
they are erroneously considering Mandi as Gulika.
Unquote
I am not talking of any change in practices - it is not necessary. The point I am trying to
make is -
1) Use of Gulika (as per BPHS) is the one supported by classics for BT rectification issues.
2) Use of Mandi (as per Phaladeepika etc) is the one supported for Prasna predictions in Karla astrology.
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3) Let others confuse the 2 terms if they want. But let us be, systematic and sincere in following the words of ancient Rishis.
4) Traditional Kerala astrologers won't accept many ideas we talk about. Remember the recent Panchanga controversy. Modern efforts to correlate it with science or holistic approach, modern techniques used by individuals like you, the circadian rhythm etc Chandrahari is interested in, the Ayanamsa issue, what ever you take, they are not going to accept many things. Let us forget the astrologers (Let it be
of south or north, eastern or western) but rather depend on the oldest available books at one end - and systematic logical holistic approach in the middle - scientific and mathematical tools and systems (experiments) at the other end; that is the better path I feel. I was pointing to the ancient view of the same in astrological classics. Shouldn't we more concerned about the truth rather than currently followed practices? I hope you would agree.
5) It would be worth remembering that we are all considered almost as 'Rebels' by almost all the steams of astrology - let it be south or north. We are not supposed to support or uphold anybodies (here normal Kerala astrologers) views - if not we are finding them as correct and supported by ancient astro classics - that is my opinion.
[Editor: Kannan brought back the discussion to the main thread with the following
comment]
Kannan (to Madhu Nair):
Thanks for the clarifications. You wrote
Quote
Badha Sthanas - Two meanings are accorded to Badha Sthanas viz (a) Obstruction (b) To be possessed
Unquote
I am not clear on option (b). If you have time, kindly elaborate. Also importance of
Gulika in Prashna. Madhu Nair:
The first meaning is self-explanatory. But countable few alone pursue that one. The vast
majority of Keralite astrologers follow the other meaning, that is, to be possessed. It could
be any thing, evil spirits, goblins, curses of preceptors, enemies etc. Say for example, if
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Sat, the 6L of enemies occupies Pisces (Badhaka place for Virgo Ascendant), in a Prasna, with Virgo rising, Astrologers say the qurrent suffers from Sathru Badha; means, he will have trouble from enemies.
If Rahu occupies Badha Sthana - predict trouble from Snakes/ members of other religion, fungal infection between thighs, viral disease etc
If Jupiter - troubles on account of curse of pious Brahmins/preceptor, Hepatitis, intestinal problems, legal complication, disease connected with vocal chord etc Venus - troubles due to females, Yakshi, venereal disease etc Gulika - Troubles due to Manes, ghost etc
Saturn - problems from low type people, Deities such as Sastha, Demigods of the Jungle, Lord Shiva etc
Mars - Due to angst of Lord Subramanya, trouble from owns own blood relatives, siblings, cops, arms and ammunition etc
NB: In a real case study, the Astrologer told the qurrent he has incurred the wrath of Lord Subramanya, and strangely the qurrent admitted that contrary to the vow taken, he failed to perform tonsuring of head in a famous temple of Lord Subramanya in Tamilnadu, for some favors received.
Mercury - Trouble from Lord Vishnu and HIS devotees, Maternal uncle/aunt, nephew, niece, friends, youngsters, media etc
Sun - Trouble from Government, Fatherly figure, excessive heat of body, sunstroke, eye disease cardiac disease, curse of Lord Shiva etc
Moon - Problems to or on account of Mom, Mother Goddess, troubles in mammary gland, eyesight, etc
Ketu - Severe back pain, angst of Lord Ganesha, sodalities, inviting the wrath of members of other religion etc
Mutual Aspect/Conjunction between 7L and Badha lord or If Badha lord aspects the ascendant lord or the ascendant, problems to qurrent on account of "evil eye" (Very Correct in actual experience) According to textbooks 27 varieties of spirits possess human beings.
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Use of Kavadi prevalent in Prashna
Kannan:
Thanks, one more query. Do you use Kavadis? If not then how you are conducting Prashna. I am asking this because I heard that use of Kavadis require many pooja's/fast/devotion etc. before getting started. If a learner wants to try a Prashna how can he do that, without using Kavadis? Like in a situation where I want to do a Prashna for myself (assuming that I know some theories). In this case the Astrologer and qurrent both are same and he cannot use Kavadi. Kindly reply.
Madhu Nair:
If it is a self-query, go for a Time chart or a horary based on KP, by selecting a number in random between 0 & 250. Always remember, in the query Moon should clearly reflect the mental status of the qurrent and Ascendant the query itself. If it is not clearly reflected in the chart, query should be deemed to be frivolous.
Sreenadh:
I do use Kavadi while doing normal Prasna; or while participating in Tamboola Prasna, Ashtamangala Prasna etc. It is normally an usual tool with any Keralite astrologer. But Kavadi is not always a must for conducting Prasna. You can ask the qurrent to -
1) Tell a number and cast Arudha find Arudha and think of chart thereupon.
2) Based on the first letter of the query you can find Arudha and think of chart there upon.
3) As told earlier you can use the "Sthityarudha"
4) You can use Lagna and cast Prasna based on that.
There are many more methods as well, well supported by the Kerala style, and astrology Prasna classics. Sreekumar:
Thanks a lot for the info. Being in Kerala I have seen Kavadi is indispensable thing among Kerala astrologers. This even made me believe that Kavadi has some special powers like crystal that can make the astrologers mind for mood of Prashna. As I can see, the uniqueness of Kerala is its Prashna. It stands out in every form and it is
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very powerful. Prashna with Kavadi makes it unique. Moreover, the few astrologers that I
have interacted has revealed that they keep Kavadi for Pooja in temples for 21 days etc ,
once a year etc , and that time they wont cast any Prasna or horoscope.
Sreenadh:
Any thing can become divine, it you treat it that way. Kavadi is divine for a Kerala
astrologer since he is treating it that way. This is mainly due to 3 factors.
1) Calculations were/are done with Kavadi. In Kerala even today who do mathematical calculations using Kavadi faster than calculators at times.
2) It symbolizes the Guru-Sishya relation, the tradition. It is almost essential and useful in many instances like taking 'Arudha'.
3) The system of Prasna described in Prasnamarga (i.e. Ashtamangala Prasna) demands he use of Kavadi, since in Ashtamangala Prasna the 108 Kavadi (shells) are divided into three, and a lot of predictions are done (especially in temples) based on that. It is an elaborate system of prediction, and Prasnamarga well depicts that. So if one wants to conduct an Ashtamangala Prasna then, Kavadi becomes essential.
4) When you use something for long, when it is important to you, when your guru gives it to, divinity gets attached to it naturally.
Quote
Moreover, the few astrologers that I have interacted has revealed that they keep Kavadi for Pooja in temples for 21 days etc, once a year etc, and that time they wont cast any Prashna or horoscope Unquote Yes, we do. [The thread ended there. The discussion was informative. All the 3 items such as - 1) Arudha concept 2) Use of Kavadi in Prasna and 3) Arudha Blocking - is clearly dealt with in the discussion and satisfactory answers given]
16. Why - Navamsa so Important?
[Vijayadas Pradeep, Madhu Nair, Sreenadh OG, Pandit Arjun, Dhanapal, Souvik Datta] Vijayadas Pradeep:
Spouse is sometimes termed as PraanaSakhi (beloved companion of Prana)Also
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Spouse is known as one half of Prana Siva and Sakti and Ardhanareeshwara -any connection?
Now Navamsa represent Nava Prana as per Dasadhyayi. Combining my own understanding with authentic words of Talakkulattu Bhattatiri (Dasadhyayi author), the relationship between Navamsa and Spouse can be linked. Thus studying the Navamsa sambandha (connection) of a Graha on relevant houses or Karaka planets, as mentioned in Classics seems to be correct and pretty clear than the contemporary understanding of Navamsa analysis.
Madhu Nair:
That is indeed an excellent explanation. Well done, Vijay, well done. I think this is one of the lost keys of unraveling the mystery of D-9, which in actual case studies, are found to be intrinsically connected with the spouse. You have given us a very valuable Tip. Sreenadh:
As per Parasara, Navamsa represent Spouse. Why? Do we have any explanation based on
Dharma-Artha-Kama-Moksha signs?
[Editor: This question was raised just as a pointer, since 7th house is Kama sign] As
per Dwadasa Varga system -
R x 1 (Kshetra)= signifies Lagna related things.
R x 2 (Hora) = signifies 2nd House related things.
R x 3 (Drekkana)= signifies 3rd House related things.
Rx 4 (Chaturdhamsa)= signifies 4th House related things.
R x 7 (Saptamsa) = signifies 7th House related things, (and Spouse)
Rx
9 (Navamsa) = signifies 9th House related things.
Rx
12 (Dwadasamsa) = signifies 12th House related things.
So as per this view, Saptamsa should represent Spouse etc, and Navamsa should
represent Father etc. Hope this clarifies. I am eagerly waiting for more inputs and
explanations.
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Pandit Arjun:
Apart from what you have mentioned, which is correct, Navamsa is the only divional chart reckoned by all astrologers invariably before attempting any prediction, it is widely believed that a planet's strength increases or decreases from lagna chart when compared to its strength in navamsa. For example, if the strength of a planet in lagna chart is zero and in navamsa it is five, the net strength would be 2.5 and similarly if the strength in lagna chart of a planet is 5 and in navamsa it is -5 the net strength would be zero. The above quantification is only for simple understanding and not application of mathematics or any rules as such.
Sreenadh:
Navamsa gets double importance than any other Varga (Amsa) and that is the reason for its importance. They are-
1) It is 1/9 th of a Sign. So it is importance as a 'Rasyamsa'.
2) It is 1/4 th of a star. (This forms the base of Sign and Nakshatra divisions). Thus due the combined effect of the above two reasons, 'Navamsa' most important as 'Nakshatramsa'. So at the same time Navamsa is Rasyamsa (Division of Sign), and Nakshatramsa (Division of Star). To add to it -
3) The luck (or destiny) of a person is what we are trying to decipher using the whole horoscope. In the horoscope the 9th house indicates Luck (Bhagya). There for 9th house is specially important in any horoscope. As per Dwadasa Varga system, the Varga that indicates 9th house related matters is Navamsa (R x 9). This also gives special importance to Navamsa.
It is due to the cumulative effect of all these that the saints gave special importance to Navamsa. Dhanapal:
Thanks to all of you for sharing the vital knowledge and giving the beginners like us great in-depth into the ancient Indian astrology. I had some doubts in Navamsa and thought of posting them.
1) What is the importance of Navamsa lagna? Is it only used for to verify that horoscope is correct? (For e.g. Navamsa lagna in male rasi for males and vice versa makes it clear that the horoscope possibly correct).
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2) In rasi, we give importance to the placements of the lagna lord, the fifth lord and the ninth lord. Same thing should be considered for 1, 5, 9 lords in Navamsa chart too?
3) Do we have to consider the drishti for all the planets? (Ex: For Jupiter 5, 7, 9 drishti is there in rasi chart. Same thing applicable in Navamsa chart too?
4) Does Navamsa create yogas too? In rasi, we consider neecha-bhanga yoga, Guru- mangal yoga etc. Is the same thing applicable in Navamsa too or not?
5) The discussion of this thread is "Navamsa for spouse". What exactly we have to look into the navamsa chart to see whether one really has blessed married life? Then what is the focus to be given on saptamsa chart (7th) different than navamsa?
6) Does retrograde to planets applicable in navamsa chart too?
7) What is the relationship does Jupiter have in Kanya (Virgo)? Is it a friendly sign or enemy sign? One of the astrologers I met argued that it is enemy sign even though some of the books I read consider it as friendly sign.
Please forgive me if they are too basic. I thought this is the correct forum to clear my doubts. I feel this will be useful to many other members here. Madhu Nair:
I will try to answer to my best of my ability purely on the basis of experience rather than what is given in the Rule book (read Text book). In Kerala, especially, well known and highly respected genuine scholars in Astrology of the old generation like Paravoor Sreedharan Tantri, and the stalwarts of the modern era like Trikunna puzha Udayakumar etc are seen evaluating the D-9 in the following way, especially in prasna (Obviously they might be interpreting in the same manner in Horoscopes too I believe). Consider Aries as the Ascendant. Suppose a planet is in 7* in Aries. Then, they say in Malayalam "Lagnathinthay munnil amshichirikunnu" That means, the planet begets an amsa in the 3rd from the Ascendant. I haven't seen them attaching any special importance to Navamsa Lagna. Navamsa chart has no independent existence and should be read along with Rasi chart. However, they use to treat the depositor of a Rasi lord at par with the Bhava Lord as reckoned from the Ascendant. I will elaborate. Usually they say like this "Lagnathipano Lagnathipantay Amsakadhipano " That means "either the Ascendant Lord or its Navamsa depositor". Suppose Aries is the Ascendant and Mars is in Aries with a longitude of 4*, that means, the navamsa depositor of Mars
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is Venus. Whilst discussing the Ascendant lord and its implication, they invariably take
into account its navamsa depositor, i.e. Venus.
Now regarding the question of Aspects in Divisional Charts -
Let me tell you from experience that Aspects apply exclusively to Rasi and definitely not
to Divisional charts. Unfortunately a commentator of BPHS (SC Mishra)in one of his
articles says aspects are equally true in divisions. This is not borne out of
experience. Anyone repeat anyone who interprets the divisional charts with aspects are just
misguiding the gullible. A counter question should be posed to protagonist of aspects in
Divisional charts "What about aspects in Hora chart" They will find their tongue tied.
Let me share my experience in Navamsa. I have seen planet in Fall in Navamsa or planet
in Navamsa that forms 2/12 or 6/8 relationship with the major period in Navamsa
adversely affecting married life. This scribe has got the good fortune to study hundreds
of horoscopes of Gulf wives. (wives of poor workers hailing from Kerala toiling in
Middle East and who are not in a position to take their wives with them ) In many (not a
Thumb rule) one could find the MD forming 2/12 relation with the sub period(s) operating.
Regarding Yogas in Navamsa, there is a concept "Rasi thulya Navamsa" That is,
Navamsa is equivalent to Rasi chart (Don't misunderstand,
D-9 has no independent existence and should always be read along with Rasi). If my
memory is correct in the chart of Mohammed Ali, the famous boxing champion of yester
years, you could find a yoga for parkinsonism in D-9. The point is D-9 often excels or
modify the indications of Rasi chart though it cannot override it. Retrogression &
Direction of planets applies only to Rasi chart and not to divisions. Virgo is the inimical
sign of Jupiter. Hope this helps.
Sreenadh:
I am providing a chart here. Just for the sake of understanding how to super impose
Rasi and Navamsa charts. Date:
January 17, 2004
Time: 6:30:00
Time Zone: 4:00:00 (East of GMT)
Place: 55 E 16' 00", 25 N 15' 00" Dubai,
United Arab Emirates Altitude: 0.00
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138 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
meters
Lunar Yr-Mo: Subhanu - Pushya
Tithi: Krishna Dasami (Mo) (43.12% left)
Vedic Weekday: Friday (Ve)
Nakshatra: Visakha (Ju) (51.34% left)
Yoga: Soola (Ju) (13.88% left) Karana:
Vishti (Sa) (86.23% left)
Hora Lord: Moon (5 min sign: Sc) Mahakala
Hora: Saturn (5 min sign: Ar) Kaala Lord:
Rahu (Mahakala: Saturn)
Sunrise: 7:09:14 (January 16)
Sunset: 17:48:06 (January 16)
Janma Ghatis: 58.3652
Ayanamsa: 24-38-35.91
Sidereal Time: 13:54:32
It is the chart style that should be kept in mind, while discussion ANY VARGA. Here Navamsa chart is super imposed on rasi chart. [If we discuss Drekkana then Drekkana (Rx3) chart would be placed above Rasi chart instead of Navamsa] Keep this kind of picture clear in mind while we talk about Navamsa or any varga. There is no independent validation of Navamsa 'chart' or D-9. In Navamsa we are examining how Rx9 will affect the native. The points Madhu ji told makes points clear such as:
Aspects (Drishti) apply exclusively to Rasi and definitely not to Divisional charts
No independent validation of Navamsa chart is advised.
Navamsa modifies the results of the Rasi chart.
I hope it helps.
SauvikDatta:
I have a question on this. Quote
"Divisional charts
* No independent validation of Navamsa chart is advised.
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* Navamsa modifies the results of the Rasi chart. Unquote
With the same Lagna in Rasi Chart, it is possible to have different Navamsa Lagnas. In this scenario, can't we use D-9 independently to rectify time of birth, keeping janma lagna fixed? Please do let me know your views. Sreenadh: You said: Quote
With the same Lagna in Rasi Chart, it is possible to have different Navamsa
Lagnas. Unquote
Right. But, it is better to state that, "With the same Lagna in Rasi chart, it is possible that 'Lagna Navamsa' could be in different Rasis (Signs)". That depicts the truth in a better way. Otherwise confusion may result. Quote
In this scenario, can't we use D-9 independently to rectify time of birth, keeping
janma lagna fixed? Unquote
But friend, the point is: "The saints never ever spoke even a word about D-Charts! They were invariably mentioning about the Navamsa (Rx9)". It is not even necessary to say 'Navamsa Varga'. since, 'Navamsa' means l/9th of a sign, and to find its position for any longitude, we just need to multiply the longitude with 9. That is why I use the syntax Rx9, meaning (Rasi) longitude x 9, which is a general method for mixing the characteristics of 12 Rasis. Thus it applies to all the 12 Vargas. For example-
R x 1 = 1st Varga (Kshetra) R x 2 = 2nd Varga (Hora) R x 3 = 3rd Varga (Drekkana) R x 4 = 4th Varga (Chaturdhamsa) R x 5 = 5th Varga (Panchamamsa) R x 6 = 6th Varga (Shashtamsa)
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R x 7 = 7th Varga (Saptamsa) R
x 8 = 8th Varga (Ashtamsa) R x
9 = 9th Varga (Navamsa)
R x 10 =10th Varga (Dasamsa)
Rx 11 =11 th Varga (Ekadasamsa) R
x 12 =12th Varga (Dwadasamsa)
[where R = Rasi longitude]
There is only 12 Rasis and there for only 12 Vargas in this 'Dwadasa Rasi system',
which is a method for mixing the characteristics of signs.
The other system called 'Shad Vargadhipa system', invariably considers 'the lords of
signs' and is different from this. The higher multiples are part of the 'Vargadhipa'
concept, and NOT the Varga concept. It is the mixing-up of the two that caused a lot of
confusion. Understand this point clearly.
Now, coming to 'Birth rectification using Vargas' (NOT Vargadhipas) the system is
given in Saravali. It starts with the first Varga (R x 1) then proceeds with the use of
Hora (Rx2), Drekkana (Rx3) etc. It is given in "Nashta Jataka (casting of lost
horoscope)' chapter of Saravali. The point to remember is that, in this method of Birth
rectification, the character/nature of the native (which is the outcome of the mixing of
sings) is given importance. "The saints were well familiar with the use of both these
systems (i.e. Dwadasa Varga system and Shadvargadhipa system), and mentioned
about them extensively in the texts". But it is the students, who confused them. Some
Judases later corrupted them, by incorporating new concepts such as -
* D-charts [Phew..! Here the Amsa/Varga concept is converted to 'Charts' which the saints never thought of]
* Drishti in D-charts [The saints never told even a word about, considering Drishti in Amsas/Vargas!]
* Transit in D-charts [This is the worst absurd of than the above two! As somebody stated, which reduces the menstrual period to days, if we are applying the well told yogas to these absurd D-charts!]
Now, one more point for especially for you: -
* Considering Vargas (Rxl Rxl2) is a method for 'Judging' lagna and the
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Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
possible lagna longitude, rather than 'calculating' the lagna longitude. Go through Saravali and it will become clear to you. Actually, there are 3 categories of methods for birth rectification -
1) Mathematical methods for calculating the lagna longitude.
2) Methods for verifying the exactness of the lagna selected.
3) Methods forjudging the possible lagna longitude.
It is better to discuss the 'birth rectification' methods as a different thread.
Dhanapal: Thanks a lot for the explanations provided in-depth. It cleared so many confusions I had. Another doubt - does planets position in the Navamsa based on Navamsa lagna is important? For example, Gemini is Navamsa lagna, Venus is in Virgo. What you will consider about the strength of Venus? Is it weak or has got some power since it is in Kendra/digbala. Also do we have to consider the planets position in the Navamsa based on rasi chart lagna?
Sreenadh: Quote
Does planets position in the Navamsa based on Navamsa lagna is important? Unquote
The answer is 'NO'. It is the placement of Navamsa 'relative to Lagna' that is important and not the one relative to 'lagna navamsa'. You have given the Navamsa lagna (better call it 'lagna navamsa'), but didn't mentioned which sign is Lagna. As per ancient system, the starting point for analysis should be the Lagna and not 'Lagna navamsa'. Varaha hora says "Langa navamsapa tulya tanu syat",
Meaning 'the body (of the native) is similar to that indicated by lagna navamsa' - it is one of the uses of lagna navamsa. Now you have stated that Venus is in virgo (In Rasi chart). That means Ve is in the sign of Me and is debilitated. Based on this minimum info you can get predictions related to -
1) Prediction given for the placement of Ve in Virgo.
2) Prediction given for a planet in debilitation.
3) If it is Ve-Me or Me-Ve dasa-antara then, predictions given for the Ve-Me combinations (since Ve is in the sign of Me) etc.
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All the above you can get from standard texts. A combined consideration, of the above gives a holistic prediction for the placement of Ve for person. Varaha hora says, "Subho subharkshe ruchiram kubhotale", meaning the relation between a planet and a sign is like the relation between land and tree. Sign is the land and Planet is the tree. In the example you provided, Ve a good planet is in a bad land (sign), since Ve is its debilitation sign. That means the wife of the native, even though good would be from a bad (economical or otherwise) family. But here you can not emphasis this point, since Ve is natural significator for wife. The 7th lord is also significator for wife and so one needs to see that point as well before saying this to the native. See the predictions given for the above 3 in standard texts and you will see that many more things can be predicted on the bases of this. Quote
Also do we have to consider the planets position in the Navamsa based on rasi chart lagna? Unquote Yes, you are right.
Dhanapal:
Thank you for the explanation Sreenadh ji.
[Editor: The thread ended there, providing some good insights about the Navamsa and its use]
17. Predictions and the Astrologer's responsibility
[Vijayadas Pradeep, Madhu Nair, Sreenadh OG, Pandit Arjun, Panditji, Vernalagnia] [Editor: In AIA Yahoo Group Madhu ji predicted that VS Achutanandan will become the chief minister of Kerala and also about the death of Pramod Mahajan. Similarly Pandit Arjun ji predicted about Jayalalita which cam true. The following is from the discussion that followed, congratulating these two individuals for their successful predictions. I am quoting this here neither to congradulate Madu Nair and Pandit Arjun ji for their successful predictions, nor to provide the details of the predictions, but to shed light on the useful knowledge that got shared in the discussion that followed] Vijayadas Pradeep:
Congrats to Madhu ji for prediction regarding VS. Today Asianet has reported, news
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143 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
confirming this, though the official announcement will only come on Monday, after the
State committee meeting.
Congrats to Pandit Arjun ji, for Jayalalitha related prediction. As you have rightly said
some astrologers, on other lists, are belittling themselves, by giving predictions after exit
polls.
Madhu Nair:
Many Thanks for your good wishes.
Pandit Arjun:
The best part of AIA Yahoo group is that Sreenadh ji is willing to share as much as he can from as much as he learnt freely to all willing seekers. In other groups, some element of sycophancy and blind belief of "because Mr. so and so said so" is visible. In this group constructive criticism and disagreement to views and open discussion in a free but respectable manner is observed which is very healthy for the progress of this group. The entire Pramod Mahajan issue (discussed in various Yahoo groups) brought disrepute to astrology so much so that CNN-IBN said this: "Mahajan left astrologers bewildered" Did any one predict that Mahajan would be SHOT AT before he was shot by his brother? NO! Once after the shooting took place, every one was betting only on whether he survives or not i.e. as simple as heads or tails 50:50. Hence all fame hungry astrologers jumped to say "I READ HIS CHART" "I KNOW OR I HAVE THE REAL CHART OF PRAMOD" etc. My humble submission to all of them is that when parliament of India and PTI which is the highest body is showing a different date of birth, how can they disbelieve the government. The drama further turned comic when someone said 'AN ASTROLOGER WHO READ PRAMOD 'S CHART GAVE ME THESE DETAILS". So with each astrologer's changing hands, the birth date (1948 or 1949) and the place (Hyderabad or Mahaboobnagar) kept changing and so are Lagnas. In future, before such pubic predictions are made, first a discussion shall take place to find out the authentic birth details.
Panditji:
It is not the first time this kind of thing has happened and won't be the last. This is the reason astrology has very low credibility. There are very few who actually do predictions. Once the election is close they can read the opinion polls and give their
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astro-lingo reading. Most of it is what Dasa is the native running or what planet is where in Rashi and ofcourse myriads of divisions projected as divisional charts. The conclusion is reached already by the poll casters.
Like in the presidential election, many well known astrologers predicted victory for the current president, very close to election time. If astrology is such a wonderful science, can we not predict change of residence? That was the point I was harping on in the US elections. If bush had lost the election, he would have moved back to Texas. Now why do we need all the authentic horoscopes of all the challengers? Can we not predict whether a person will change residence? If we can not, there is a serious lack of understanding of basic principles or the principles are not repeatable or both.
Vijayadas Pradeep:
Change of residence is a brilliant clue, and points towards application of common sense. Thanks a lot.
Vernalagnia:
I second that. Commonsense can only be disregarded at the astrologer's peril. If you look for possibilities of divorce in a chart, look first for signs of marriage.
Pandit Arjun:
Agreeing with your concluding remark, my understanding of "modern" astrology (with hundreds of formatting styles and dasas) or prediction purely based on a horoscope (which changes drastically with every Ayanamsa) is just like a pathology. A patient goes to a hospital and the doctor first asks him to do a CHECK-UP of various visible and invisible parameters and several blood, urine, x-ray, scan and other
reports are generated. Based on these reports, the doctor gives an indication that too based on a fixed theory that if the count is above or below xxx, the patient is suffering from this or that, even though thousands of private medical colleges collect more than a million rupees as donation just for studying medicine and then these doctors are on the prowl to recover their million by earning crores, whenever a patient is operated, the doctor asks the patient to sign a declaration that if the operation fails and the patient dies, there is no fault of the doctor. Every day even in the best hospitals like Apollo, several people keep dying.
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Whenever predictions fail, most of the modern astrologers take refuge in karmic
theory that too of different karmas like acquired, earned and so on. if these astrologers
attribute the suffering or happiness of a native to karmic theory, he or astrology has no role,
for the karma theory works on its own laws of karma. In such cases, an astrologer shall
admit while making the prediction itself that this is what the chart says based on the details
furnished by the native and not "I PREDICT". When a pathological report comes, it is
the report which says and not the pathologist. By trying to own responsibility,
answerability, accountability and tall claim for getting name and fame, astrologers often
use the words "I PREDICTED" or "I SAID SO".
It is high time astrologers stop making tall claims and stop taking credit for their
predictions so that if their predictions fail even once, people brand him a failure and he
spoils his own reputation with his own hands. Truly the golden saying come true
"YOUR FUTURE IS IN YOUR OWN HANDS".
Sreenadh:
I really agree with your views - and appreciate the sincerity involved. Panditji said:
Quote
Can we not predict whether a person will change residence? If we can not, there is a
serious lack of understanding of basic principles or the principles are not repeatable or
both.
Unquote
I think he is hinting at need of 'objective verification' of the basic methods.
Sreenadh:
I don't know which of these messages to appreciate more! - I feel like reading them
again and again.
Quote
Now why do we need all the authentic horoscopes of all the challengers? Can we not
predict whether a person will change residence? If we can not, there is a serious lack of
understanding of basic principles or the principles are not repeatable or both.
Unquote
Dear Panditji, I think it is the "serious lack of understanding of basic principles". If we are
not sure about the basics how can we proceed further - that is why a serious look back
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into the basics is a necessity. Only the restructuring of the whole of astrology, based on
the views of the Rishis itself, is need of the moment, I think. May be only that can save
astrology from its current crisis. It is in this direction we should work - 1 feel.
Quote
Agreeing with your concluding remark, my understanding of "modern" astrology (with hundreds of formatting styles and dasas) or prediction purely based on a horoscope (which changes drastically with every Ayanamsa) is just like a pathology. A patient goes to a hospital and the doctor first asks him to do a CHECK-UP of various visible and invisible parameters and several blood, urine, x- ray, scan and other reports are generated. Based on these reports, the doctor gives an indication that too based on a fixed theory that if the count is above or below xxx, the patient is suffering from this or that.
Unquote
Sounds beautiful! Making all those various Ayanamsas, D-charts, Dasas everything or
thousands of imaginary inventions, appear correct and scientific! Though I love that
argument style, I hope you are not supporting all those varied numerous systems
which does not find support in astrological classics.
Quote
Even though thousands of private medical colleges collect more than a million rupees as donation just for studying medicine and then these doctors are on the prowl to recover their million by earning crores, whenever a patient is operated, the doctor asks the patient to sign a declaration that if the operation fails and the patient dies, there is no fault of the doctor. Everyday even in the best hospitals like Apollo, several people keep dying. Whenever predictions fail, most of the modern astrologers take refuge in karmic theory that too of different karmas like acquired, earned and so on.
Unquote
So it seems that, astrologers escape, "sign a declaration", is the Karmic theory. It is a
good mode of escape and is functioning very well.
Quote
If these astrologers attribute the suffering or happiness of a native to karmic theory, he
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or astrology has no role, for the karma theory works on its own laws of karma. Unquote
I do agree. But they won't let you run away with that argument, because Prasnamarga and Laghu Jataka support their argument. Haven't you heard the sloka, 'Poorva janma janitam puratana karmam dayvam iti samprachakshte' [The previous Karma is called luck. Or translate in other words, 'The Karma of the previous birth is called Bhagya (Destiny)]. Mihira in Laghu Jataka says -
"Yedupachitamanya janmani subhasubham tasya karmana panktim Vyenjayati sastram etat tamasi dravyani deepaiva"
Meaning the, Horoscope shows the result of good and bad Karma done in previous birth, like a lamp that shows things in darkness. Dear Arjunji, what I wanted to say is that, the Karma theory that was incorporated to astrology around the 6th century had provided the supporters of Karma theory a lots and lots of slokas, to defend their arguments. They will say that astrology is itself is the one that shows the works/results of Karmic theory. They will say that even though astrology has no role in controlling the 'laws of karma', astrology can show as the effects of the working of that Karma. Eg: watch does not control time, but shows time. So your above argument is not the one, with out a loophole, though I would love to support it. Quote
An astrologer shall admit while making the prediction itself that this is what the chart says based on the details furnished by the native and not "I PREDICT". When a pathological report comes, it is the report which says and not the pathologist. Unquote
Yes, it is another good escape mechanism, but reflects truth as well. So I would like to be in this category. A descent escape! Quote
By trying to own responsibility, answerability, accountability and tall claim for getting name and fame, astrologers often use the woods "I PREDICTED" or "I SAID SO". Unquote Poor fellows! They can't help the urge of the ego.
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Quote
It is high time astrologers stop making tall claims and stop taking credit for their
predictions so that if their predictions fail even once, people brand him a failure and
he spoils his own reputation with his own hands. Truly the golden saying come true
"YOUR FUTURE IS IN YOUR OWN HANDS".
Unquote
Yes. Better, dear astrologers your respect is in your own hands, and if you want to
keep it "don't take the responsibility"!
Dear Arjunji, I was just enjoying your mail, and was reading a line or two in between
the lines. But yes, actually I agree with your arguments and usually never try to say
that 'I predicted'. All we can do is try to use the tools and methods provided by the
gurus in the most efficient way, who knows what would be the outcome! The logical
methods we follow make bring success to us at times, and at times failure! So it is
better to put the blame on them, though actually almost 50% of the blame should go to us
as well, who are trying to use them without enough verification. But it is also right that
100% verification is not possible, since at any condition it is impossible to predict future
accurately and completely, due to actual intervention of chance.
[Editor: The thread ended. With some beautiful examples, the posts are worth reading and
re-reading]
18. Kunda Method and Birth Time rectification
[Panditji, Sreenadh OG, Vinita]
Panditji:
I had heard of nav-navamsa technique long time ago, but do not recall exactly how it was done. This would be a great discussion and actually will open up a big Pandora box of general techniques of birth time rectifications. I think we should ask people who have a lot of experience in these techniques to share their findings. What about Kunda method, Nav-navamsa, etc?
Sreenadh:
Lagna Longitude X 81 = Nava Navamsa
Nava Navamsa is also known as Kunda. I used to refer to Lagna longitude or any rasi
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longitude using the letter R. So I will prefer to write R. where R=Rasi longitude. (It is
just the generalized form) i.e. Nava Navamsa = R x 81. It is also known as Kunda
Multiplication method since, Ku=l and nda=8 as per katapayadi notation (the system
of using letters instead of numbers). 81 = 9 x 9, and that is why the word Nava
Navamsa. Nava = 9.
The concept is that R x 81 should fall in birth star of the native or its trine stars. Then only
the birth time can be considered correct, they (ancient astrological texts) say. JHora
provides the Kunda longitude which is accurate. In the basics tab just look at the Kunda
longitude and in which star it falls and correct the time slightly so that the Kunda
longitude falls in the Birth star or its trine stars. It is that simple.
By the way, Kunda method and Nava navamsa are the same. By error JHora follows
different calculations methods for the both, and the 'Nava Navamsa' given in JHora is
different from Kunda and is an erroneous value. PVR uses some the round about way of
expunging of multiples of 360 or the like for Nava navamsa, which he has already
admitted that gives an erroneous value. But the Kunda given as per JHora is ok. It is one
and the same as Nava Navamsa.
Panditji:
Thanks for this info. When you say Rasi longitude, you mean the lagna longitude, right?
Birth Star means the Nakshatra in which Chandra is placed, correct? Just trying to make
sure that the entire lingo is properly defined.
There was a note from Chadra Hari regarding this method,. Not sure exactly what his
conclusions were. Have you done this on known charts to verify whether the method
works unfailingly?
Sreenadh:
Quote
When you say Rasi longitude, you mean the lagna longitude, right?
Unquote
As far as Kunda verification is concerned - Yes. But Nava navamsa (Kunda) of other
planetary longitudes or other longitudes are also mentioned/used in texts like
Prasnamarga for other purposes. But that is not relevant here.
Quote
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Birth Star means the Nakshatra in which Chandra is placed, correct? Unquote
Yes. The relation between Body (Lagna) and Mind (Mo) is a must for birth to take place. That is why, it is said that the Nava navamsa (Kunda) should fall in the birth star or its trine stars. Quote
Have you done this on known charts to verify whether the method works
unfailingly? Unquote
This is a method that gives the possible moments of birth, and the maximum correction that can be applied by this method is plus or minus 3 minutes only. It is a method supported by Skanda Hora, Brihat prajatyam, Varaha hora, Prasna Ratna and Prasnamarga. Chandra hari is speaking about some rhythm of time based on this. How we are going to be sure that, this is an unfailing method, or the like, when the correction applied is just 3 min max? It is a well supported method by authentic texts and is logically correct that is the only thing I can say. If there is an error of more than 6 min in birth time, this method is not going to help. It is one of the 4 methods known as 'Varga chtushtaya methods'.
P.S. : PVR gives Kunda and Nava navamsa seperately in JHora because, JHora gives Navamsa of 2 types - Parasara (general system; R x9) and Kalachakra navamsa (I don't know what it is). The nava navamsa is calculated differently for both. And that is why he made it a seperate option from Kunda. When Parasara navamsa is selected, Kunda and Nava navamsa should be the same even if such a separation is made. But due to erroneous nava-navamsa calculation method followed, JHora is not giving this result. But its Kunda calculation is OK. Vinita:
What a wonderful post! U have written - Quote
The relation between Body (Lagna) and Mind (Mo) is a must for birth to take place. That
is why, it is said that the Nava navamsa (Kunda) should fall in the birth star or its trine
stars.
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Unquote
My question is how much time does it take to be born? Is one born exact to the second, or a fraction of a second or is there a wider window for the Lagna (body) and Mind (Moon) to unite?
They say that death is not instantaneous - but may take some time (for the body to be disengaged from the mind. ..or for the mind to dissolve?). ...so I suppose birth should also take some time to happen. So then how does one determine the birth time? Isn't there a range of time for birth too?
And then how does one determine this range of time (if it is a range of time and not a very precise second or a fraction of a second)? Is it when the umbilical chord is severed? Or when the baby's head first emerges, or when it breathes for the first time (cries?)? Now I am sure there would be difference of some seconds if not minutes for such things to happen. What do the ancient texts say about this?
The reason I am asking this is that with my very limited understanding i tried the exercise on the Kunda. Earlier I had rectified my birth time by 2 minutes and 15 seconds because this meant a change in the Navamsa lagna which matched the 7th house of my husband just like my 7th house matched with his (exact to the rasi and planets in the rasi). With the Kunda method the trine of the birth Nakshatra matches with the Kunda if I move the time backward by 15 seconds. This made me wonder whether birth takes a while or if it is exact to the second or the fraction of a second. Sreenadh:
You always make me write long mails, by posting some simple, small but in-depth
queries. You said:
Quote
My question is how much time does it take to be born? Is one born exact to the second, or a fraction of a second or is there a wider window for the Lagna (body) and Mind (Moon) to unite? Unquote
Birth does not take place in a moment - you and I know. I don't think any explanation is necessary on that. But the horoscope is cast based on some exact moment (correct to seconds), that is supposed to reflect the rhythm of destiny - I think some explanation is
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necessary on that. Let us start from the first question
Which is the correct Birth Time?
Quote
Is it when the umbilical chord is severed? Or when the baby's head first emerges, or when it breathes for the first time (cries?)? Now I am sure there would be difference of some seconds if not minutes for such things to happen. Unquote
Yes, you are right - and also right in judging what I can say - "What do the ancient texts say about this?" Of course I should agree that even the Rishis have different opinion on this - but luckily their basic opinion is not different. The Birth time is -
1) The time at which head, feet or hand comes out - this argument is supported by Saravali, Garga Jataka
2) The time at which placenta breaks (Gerbhodaka sruti) - supported by Brihat Sounaka hora, Saravali
3) The time at which umbilical cord is cut - supported by none.
4) The time of first breath - supported by none.
5) The time of first cry - supported by none.
6) Time of union of sperm with ovum (Aadhana) - supported by Saravali, Leghu Jatakam
7) The time at which forehead is seen - Saravali
8) The time of first touching the earth - Saravali
Note that Saravali itself supports 5 of these methods. There is a sloka in Saravali that explicitly states the same as well. Destiny is also predicted based on - Time of marriage, Time of first menses for girls etc. So what is the generalization? Let us give it as no. 9
9) Based on any moment that very closely related to an individual, based on any moment that is very important in his life, the pattern of destiny can be predicted.
I think that last option clearly depicts the actual view of the Rishis. Now it is not possible to collect the exact moment of any of the above - so even in that period they had no other option but to resort to the mathematical methods for determining the exact moment that depicts destiny, once the approximate BT is got. Therefore the
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mathematical methods given below get more importance than the above points. All of
them just give the approximate birth time, since birth is a process that takes many
minutes. Now the question to be answered is - does, Rishi horas support the use of
such mathematical methods? Yes. Vasishta hora says -
Sastrokta margena sulegnakalam samaneyam
Meaning, the birth time (and the longitude of the ascendant) should be corrected
following the ancient advice. Kasyapa hora says -
Sidhantoktena margena lagnakalam presadhayet
Meaning, the birth time (and the longitude of the ascendant) should be corrected
following mathematical methods.
There fore we need to search for the mathematical methods that were in use to find the
precious moment (exact to the seconds) that depicts the rhythm of destiny for that
person. (Could it be there more than one such point for a single person? OK. I live it
for you to think). Such methods I got from ancient texts are -
1) Pancha Tatwa method - partially supported by Uttara kalamrita, Yajcha valkya smriti
2) Kunda method - supported by Sounaka hora, Brihal prajapatya, Varaha hora
3) Navams Dwadasamsa - Brihat Prajapatya
4) Varga chatushtaya method - Skanda hora, Brihat prajaptyam, Sounaka hora, Prasna ratna, Prasnamarga.
5) Birth time ghati-vighati - Uttara kalamrita.
I think these are the most important methods that are available.
The first method has the advantage that it helps for BT rectification for even more than 10 min at times. But this method is not well supported by classics.
The 2nd and 3rd are just part of the 4th method. So I reject them.
The Varga chatushtaya method is well supported by Rishi horas and seems to have been in use for long. This is the most authentic method.
The 5th method does not find any support in Rishi horas. So the conclusion is that,
We need to know the approximate birth time, (take any)
To correct it we can use the Varga chatushtaya method and Pancha tatwa
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method. This is the conclusion I got.
Birth lagna verification - Use Gk - says Prasna Ratna, Prasna sangraha, Jataka parijata, prasnasara, phaladeepika unanimously. Quote
This made me wonder whether birth takes a while or if it is exact to the second or
the fraction of a second. Unquote
As per ancient definitions, birth takes a while, but the horoscope is created based on a mathematically corrected moment within that span, which is supposed to depict the destiny more accurately for that individual.
P.S: It is said that a ripple creates thousand ripples. Similar is a question - the result is thousands of questions. But yes, that is the right way of learning. [Editor: This thread was much informative and gave new insights about the organization and approach of birth time rectification methods]
19. Male-Female verification using Natal chart
[Sreenadh OG, David Andrews, Panditji, Pandit Arjun] [Editor: This write-up discusses the 'astrological rules for male-female verification from natal horoscope'. Even though started in a big way the tread ended up nowhere, even though some bit of useful info got shared] Sreenadh:
I have a suggestion - Why can't we (here in this group) try to evaluate whether a horoscope is of a male or female?
Let anybody provide the horoscope, without revealing whether it is of a male or female, and shall we try to verify whether it is of a male or female, yes 'only based on the prime laws given here itself. Because we will make it 'NOT a test of the predictive power of the participants', but 'a test of those prime laws given for verification'. After verifying around 10 or 20 horoscopes, we will compare it with the actual. As Arjun ji said: please don't say, "I PREDICTED" or "I SAID SO", but let us stop making tall claims and validate the tool. It we fail, we will understand that it is
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the failure of the 'prime rules selected for validation' and 'not ours'. Then later at some
point of time we will select another set of rules and conduct similar experiments. [Editor:
After this, some possible rules to determine, whether a horoscope is of a male or female is
given]
The horoscope verified to determine whether it is of a male or female against the
following 7 Basic rules. [They are the 'only rules that would be considered' and NO
OTHER RULES SHOULD BE CONSIDERED in this exercise] The MAXIMUM
points (marks) are given in brackets.
I] Male.
1) If Su and Ju are in Oja(Male) sign, then it is male. Male planets in male sign is the logic behind. [2 points]
2) If Lagna, Moon, Su, Ju are in Oja(Male) sign, then it is male. Placement of significators for body, mind, soul and luck is the logic behind. Same rule should be applied to Navamsa as well. [4+4=8 points]
3) If Su, Ju, Sa are in 1-3-5-7-9-11 then it is a male. Male planets in Oja (male) houses from Lagna is the logic behind. [3 points]
II] Female.
1) If Ve and Mo are in Ugma (Female) sign, then it is female. Female planets in female sign is the logic behind. [2 points]
2) If Lagna, Moon, Su, Ju are in Ugma(Female) sign, then it is female. Placement of significators for body, mind, soul and luck is the logic behind. Same rule should be applied to Navamsa as well. [4+4=8 points]
3) If Ve, Mo, Me are in 2-4-6-8-10-12 then it is a female. Female planets in Ugma (Female) houses from Lagna is the logic behind. [3 points]
Total 13 points are considered for Male and for Female. It is determined whether it is of a male or female based on the majority points. The astrologer (participant), has the liberty to assign 2 points considering the placement power (Exaltation, Own house, Vargottama etc of planets in favor or male or female). So the maximum point either male or female can get is: 13+2= 15 points
I hope the rules are clear. Let me know, about your opinion about such an experiment. Also let us select a trustee (who will keep the actual data supplied, and reveal it at the end),
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before proceeding.
PS: The rules I laid out are well supported by the classics. Even though Ma is said to be a
male planet, since it indicates menses classics consider its placement to be indicative
of female birth as well, that is why Ma is left out in all these considerations. Sa is said to
indicate male impotent, and Me female impotent. But it is said in classics that the
placement of Sa in 1-3-5-7-9-11 indicates male birth and Me in 2-4-6-8-10-12 female birth.
I think it clarifies.
In every chart both male and female nature (male and female indications) are present. It is
the majority points that determine whether a chart is of a male or female as per astrology.
[Editor: Rules that will ensure the objective nature of the exercise got listed below this. (I
won't be quoting them here) But this branch of the thread seemed die-out there itself, since
none dared to take up or participate in such an exercise! They were all afraid of their own
reputation! Sreenadh tried to bring back this issue in to focus again, with the following
message]
Sreenadh:
It seems that everybody brilliantly ignored the above message from me! 'Why, shall I
know?' or should I say 'Why shall I know?' There were no mal-intentions, in that
message - but only the curiosity for objective verification of rules. Determining
whether the horoscope is of a male or female is one of the basic tests we can conduct in a
systematic way. That was the only reason for presenting the suggestion for such an
experiment. If anybody has the feeling that the rules put forward are not proper and good
enough, together we will make amendments, and try to implement such an exercise,
even at a later date. But if nobody is interested, please ignore this message, and we will
continue with our normal discussions.
David Andrews :
I don't think anyone has deliberately ignored your message. I for one can sincerely attest
to the fact of careful reading of every message you post as they contain gems of
inestimable value. I have yet to read your lengthy message on the above subject. I will
certainly be reading it as it is something anyone who aspires to learn Vedic astrology
would love to know. Astrologers in Tamilnadu use certain Ghatis and Vighatis to
differentiate between a male and female. Is that not followed by astrologers in Kerala? I am
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writing to you to inform you that your efforts here in this list are not wasted. It is surely appreciated. Please carry on the good work.
Sreenadh:
Thanks for the encouragement and the thoughts shared. Almost no method in astrology is specific to Kerala or Tamilnadu or for that reason to any other region in India. We are here in search of different systems of ancient indian astrology - that is all to it. Yes, some astrologers in Kerala follow that as well. I found more than 10 methods for correcting the BT and 5-6 for verifying BT and the like used by various astrologers which are supported by classics as well. As you may know, the ghati- vighati method for determining male-female from horoscope is supported by Uttara Kalamrita, a text originated in North India. Probably some of the Tamil astrologers are following it as per that text only.
Pandit Arjun:
Even while appreciating your principles of male planets in male signs and female planets in female signs from a birth chart for deciphering the gender, in my experience it is not foolproof even in correct birth charts. Here comes the role of prasna chart. Though I am not an expert in prasna chart, under the prasna principles, the result is amazingly precise in deciphering the native's gender.
Panditji:
What are these unfailing principles, could you elaborate with an example. Sreenadhji, In your earlier mail you referred to 1-3-5-7-9-11 for Saturn and 2-4-6-8-10-12 for Mercury. These are houses not signs I presume. It still is a very broad definition. So if Saturn is in Cancer now, so for Virgo lagna right now Saturn will be in 11th house. That is two hours approx. every day. Need some finer measures to have it as an unfailing technique
Sreenadh:
Sign and house are the same as per Mihira and all Rishi Horas. All systems that consider signs and houses as different areas (like plesides system etc) originated after Sripati only. Quote
In your earlier mail you referred to 1-3-5-7-9-11 for Saturn and 2-4-6-8-10-12 for Mercury.
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Unquote
When I say "1-3-5-7-9-11 for Shani", I mean Odd (Oja) houses starting from Lagna.
and when I say "2-4-6-8-10-12 for Mercury" I mean Even (Ugma) houses starting
from Lagna. Please remember that sign and houses are the same - the only difference
being that Signs are counted from Mesha (Aries) while Houses are counted from
Lagna.
By the way, the word 'Oja/Ugma' has got two meanings-
1) Odd and Even signs starting from Aries (Mesha)
2) Odd and Even houses (=signs) starting from Lagna Quote
What are these unfailing principles, could you elaborate with an example. Unquote
Whether they are unfailing principles or not - I am not sure. We need to check - and
that is why I suggested this experiment. Saturn in 1 1th is just one of the possibilities. In
that experiment we are considering 15+15 = 30 conditions to check whether it is a
male or female and takes the decision only as per majority indications.
[Editor: The thread died-out there abruptly. May be everyone is in search of easy
solutions or systems where single tablet will solve every problem! They were possibly in
search of 'unfailing principles' which are easy to learn and use. But astrology is not
simply a tool for wish fulfillment - and so there is no such magic wand present. Thus
even though incomplete the discussion was much helpful in revealing many things -
including the dedication and approach of knowledgeable individuals towards astrological
research studies]
20. Chart Interpretation skills
[Pradeep, Sreenadh OG] Pradeep:
Many of us have a fairly good grounding in the basic principles of astrology though most of it is not well digested. There is a lot of confusion while attempting to interpret the birth charts or Prasna - correlating all the divisional charts and judging them to arrive at a proper conclusion.
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This is a skill many members would be grateful to acquire from the learned and
experienced amongst us if charts are discussed systematically and logically with
explanation why a particular judgment is arrived at.
We would also be happy if some good books and/or websites are suggested to us to
augment our practical knowledge.
Sreenadh:
Quote
Many of us have
This is a skill many members would be grateful to acquire....
We would also be happy
Unquote
Boldly spell out your requests and suggestions sir! Don't put the wait on others. In a
previous mail Pandit Arjunji termed it, "changing hands". Who are these we? Is there
another team around? Be bold and put forward your requests and suggestions. If others
are interested for sure they will respond. By the way, learning is an individual process, so
normally statements about doubts will have a tone of individuality with them, but
discussion is a group process. The relation between the two is that discussion, aids
learning. Knowledge or no knowledge, learning or teaching, it is our group - sir, with
equal rights to all to express their INVIDUAL opinion. So you can stand straight and
ask.
Quote
Many of us have a fairly good grounding in the basic principles of astrology though
most of it is not well digested. Unquote
I won't say that I have a good grounding in the basic principles! But rather would like to say that I am still trying to grasp the essence of the basic principle and still a learner. Quote
There is a lot of confusion while attempting to interpret the birth charts or Prasna -
correlating all the divisional charts and judging them to arrive at a proper
conclusion.
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Unquote
Sir, the problem for me is that I am totally against Divisional charts, I don't know about others. There is a lot of confusion out there and that is why we are starting at the BASICS and trying to solve at least some. I am and many of us are still kinds and is just playing with the BASICS. Look at the query of Vijayadas pradeep! - He is still playing with the word Navamsa and trying to figure out how it is related to spouse. I don't know anything about it, and how am I going to say that "I have a good grounding in basic principles"! Quote
This is a skill many members would be grateful to acquire from the learned and
experienced amongst us Unquote
There is no such among us - if some body says he is - then he is NOT! It is just discussion between friends. Pradeep:
Just to get an idea of judging a horoscope I shall be grateful if the learned members just provide me the guidance about how to go about it from the following example. "Mars is posited in Pisces lagna whose lord Jupiter is retrograde in cancer and aspects Mercury in 1 1th house and Venus in 9th house which is hemmed between malefics in 8th House (Sat) and 10th House (Sun and Rahu)"
How does one go about it step by step to arrive at conclusions? Please assume any dasa and bhukti - since my objective is just to get the feel of the art of interpreting a birth chart. Thank you. Sreenadh: Quote
Mars is posited in Pisces lagna whose lord Jupiter is retrograde in cancer and
aspects Mercury in 11th house and Venus in 9th house which is hemmed between
malefics in 8th House (Sat) and 10th House (Sun and Rahu). Unquote
First answer these questions, 1) Mars is posited in Meena (Pi) what will you predict?
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2) What will you predict if the Lagna lord is in 5th house?
3) What will you predict if Ju in Cn?
4) What will you predict if Lagna lord is in exaltation?
5) What will you predict if the 10th lord is in 5th?
6) What will you predict if the Karaka for 5th house (Ju) is in 5th ?
7) What will you predict if Me is in 1 1th house?
8) What will you predict if Me is in Cp?
9) What will you predict if the 8th lord is in 1 1th?
10) What will you predict if Me is aspected (Drishti) by Ju?
11) What will you predict if Ve is in 9th house?
12) What will you predict if Ve is in Sc?
13) What will you predict if the 3rd lord is in 9th?
14) What will you predict if the 8th lord in 9th?
15) What will you predict if Ve is aspected (Drishti) by Ju?
16) What will you predict if Ve is between 2 malefics?
17) What will you predict if S a is in Li?
1 8) What will you predict if Sa is in 8th house?
19) What will you predict if the 12th lord is in 8th house?
20) What will you predict if the 1 1th lord is in 8th house?
21) What will you predict if Su is in 10th house?
22) What will you predict if Su is in Sg?
23) What will you predict if the 6th lord is in 10th?
24) What will you predict if Ra is in 10th house?
25) What will you predict if Ra is in Sg?
26) What will you predict if Su is with Ra?
27) What will you predict if a good planet is in Vakra (retrograde)?
28) What are the general predictions for Pi lagna or the nature of Pi lagna?
29) What will you predict if Su has Vasi Yoga?
30) What will you predict if Ju in exaltation and Sa in exaltation in mutual Kendra exchange/imparts significance (Paraspara Karakatwa)
31) What will you
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The list seems to be too long? But I should ask some more questions-
32) Do you want us to analyze a whole horoscope?!
33) If genuinely for the purpose of learning how many parameters one is supposed to introduce?!
34) Do you know answer to all the above questions?
35) If so just tell us one answer for each - only that would make it a both sided conversation. So can you give at least a single line answer to each of those questions? Then I am ready to analyze this data in detail, otherwise not.
36) The whole life is told based on a horoscope - So what is that you really want to ask? Or is it a hit and run method, to make all the others worry.
It is not with any ill intention that I am posting this message - but to direct the
genuinely interested individuals to the correct path. Even the questions, should follow
some system, if it is intended for a learning process. But if it is discussion between
people who already know the answers, then hinting at the idea that needs to be
clarified and hinting at the direction of answer would be enough.
[Editor: The thread ended there abruptly - with know answer coming-up to the questions
put forward. Even though no new astrological information came up - the importance of
having an approach even in asking questions came into lime light with this thread]
21. Some Ramblings
[Vinita, Sreenadh OG] Vinita:
Yesterday I went through the files section, basically your articles - to understand some to the things that we are talking of here. The 0 point in Chandrahari Ayanamsa, the BT rectification etc. My first thought was - Christ, what am I doing on a forum like this? This is meant for knowledgeable people - people who know astrology and Ganita (mathematics). Though you have been extremely encouraging and patient with at times inane questions from my side - the best thing for a person like me would be to remain shut.
The thought also crossed my mind that I could be suffering from indigestion - the rumblings that go on with undigested food in the stomach. But as a novice in this area
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let me still give you some feedback, for whatever that is worth.
First let me thank u for clarifying that astrology is basically Kala Tantra, a study of
time. What I like particularly is what u said about understanding the rhythm of time. It
almost sounded like the Ayurvedic doctor putting the finger on the pulse. So when you
can understand the pulse of time you can understand so many things. There can be
different techniques for catching the pulse as there are different systems in astrology,
but the essence remains the same.
Then you said that in order to understand time you study motions, motions of planets.
That is even more interesting - Motions in relation to a stationary zodiac, motions of
the planets, motions of the earth. The whole talk of the 0 point is a search of where the
sidereal coincided with the tropical while the earth "wobbled" on its axis. (Why the
lagna jumps 180 degrees at the poles may once again have something to do with the
motion of the earth?)
But the most interesting thing perhaps is whether the study of the macro could be
combined with the micro. (Again back to relativity and quantum mechanics?). I am
really looking forward to your exposition of the Prasnamarga - the present moment,
and how truth can be derived from there.
And finally, whether there is anything that can bend time to one's own wishes, by
bending to the divine wish - where motions stop and time has no meaning?
Thank you, once again for putting so many delectable things on the plate. Though the
appetite is always there to gobble up food what I should mind is the poor stomach,
which is only a small pouch of extremely limited capacity.
Sreenadh:
It was beautiful - Thank you. You have collected many important points and presented
them in a single mail.
Quote
First let me thank u for clarifying that astrology is basically Kala Tantra, a study of
time. Unquote Yes, It is one of the most important points.
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164 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
Quote
What I like particularly is what you said about understanding the rhythm of time. It almost sounded like the Ayurvedic doctor putting the finger on the pulse. So when you can understand the pulse of time you can understand so many things. There can be different techniques for catching the pulse as there are different systems in astrology, but the essence remains the same. Unquote
You have put it beautifully. Yes, there can be different techniques for catching the pulse, as there are different systems in astrology. That is why Tropical and Sidereal predictive astrology existed even from time of Vedic period simultaneously, and gave true results. That is why if we take any point in the ecliptic and make a predictive system after proper study it can give good results for a short span (many 25-50 years) but not long. (Why ecliptic alone, even the path of moon could a reference for creating a temporary predictive system) That is why for giving exact results for long a fixed frame of reference, and a mathematical abstraction of the fluctuations, becomes important - and so the Sidereal Zodiac with Meshadi as Zero point. Yes, in all these situations the essence remains the same - study of the pulse of time. Quote
Then you said that in order to understand time you study motions, motions of planets. That is even more interesting - Motions in relation to a stationary zodiac, motions of the planets, motions of the earth. The whole talk of the 0 point is a search of where the sidereal coincided with the tropical while the earth "wobbled" on its axis. Unquote
Absolutely right - Motions should be judged against a fixed framework - like the coordinates plotted on a graph. Quote
(Why the lagna jumps 180 degrees at the poles may once again have something to do with the motion of the earth?) Unquote Exactly right - and that is why that question is very important. Does it tell us that the
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165 Ancient Indian Astrology (AIA) Yearly Digest 2006
current calculation system given in JHora (for Lagna calculation for polar regions) is
not in line with the fundamental concept of Rishis? If Lagna is supposed to give the
"the relative angle of rotation of earth with reference to the Zero point with in 360
deg", then how can it jump? It shouldn't! What does that mean? Are we wrongly
taking opposite point in such situations, because the fundamentals are still undigested?
Can't you see how even the big questions automatically gets answered when we are
ready to stick to the fundamentals? I think the answer hides here - why lagna jumps
and why it shouldn't.
Please follow the Link provided by Vijayadas ji some days before - and see how the
wrong consideration of house system as different from Rasis could lead to more
erroneous concepts - such as non existence of some houses in horoscope etc. Please
remember that in 360 deg all signs and all houses do exist. If it were a continuous 360 deg
rotation of a single point, everything would be ok. If somebody is changing the